School/Mass shootings are now part of our culture.

[nobodythank you]

I don't disagree that it's a challenge, but I think this could be accomplished by incentivizing teachers who participate in training on their own time. With all of the veteran owned tactical training groups out there, there are plenty of opportunities for teachers to seek out training.
I personally have worked with church security team members who receive incentives from their church and big discounts from the training group.

A great idea no doubt, but my main point was that it was impractical and not likely to occur. Even law enforcement professionals don't see that much training in a year's time. Most SWAT teams from smaller agencies don't have the budget or time for that much training. The larger cities with full time teams could realistically do something like that. Which goes to my point that it would be impractical for teachers given constraints on their time and duties as it stands now. In the end it all boils down to money and time. Both of which are in short supply for an already overloaded teacher.

Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to arming teachers or school staff. I just don't see there being a significant amount of training for them after their initial familiarization. If they can even come to an agreement with their local LE agencies. The school district I live in is fighting tooth and nail with the sheriff's office to avoid arming teachers. Both agencies are cash strapped and undermanned. It is an ugly problem to be sure.

 

[Topkick]

@ke4gde Valid points. My other half is a school teacher and I can verify that money and time will be a major issue.

 

[J.]

Good job law enforcement!

I don’t get how this is a terrorist act though. Doesn’t terrorism require a political angle? This looks to me more like gang violence.

Terrorism - Wikipedia

“Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.”

 

[RetPara]

There in lies the rub. The schools often are opposed to even voluntarily allowing teachers to be armed, let alone trained. I can see local LE looking askance with this as a major liability issue for them and school systems. The best middle route still seems to be armed LE School Resource Officers. Your mileage will vary with that though. Some LEA's will use it as a dumping ground or ROAD Program/Transition to retirement.

 

[Topkick]

Some LEA's will use it as a dumping ground or ROAD Program/Transition to retirement.

I think you're right. Also, if you hire retirees you'll have to pay them well or, as with any other job, you will get what you pay for.

 

[AWP]

Terrorism - Wikipedia

“Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.”

You do what you want, and you probably don't know the man or his background, but I wouldn't go down this path with @Marauder06.

 

[J.]

You do what you want, and you probably don't know the man or his background, but I wouldn't go down this path with @Marauder06.

My bad gentleman, I had no intention of going down any path. I was just quoting the definition because I thought he legitimately was wondering if terrorism is from strictly a political angle. I cited it only to show I didn’t just pull it out of thin air. I don’t know his background, sorry if it came off wrong, I thought he was asking a question.

 

[AWP]

post

No harm, no foul, Marine. You're good.

 

[policemedic]

You do what you want, and you probably don't know the man or his background, but I wouldn't go down this path with @Marauder06.

I was going to comment on the academic and intellectual merits of Wikipedia but yeah...What you said .

 

[SpitfireV]

I think we had a big discussion on the definition of terrorism a few years back. Personally I don't think you'll ever get unanimous acceptance of any particular definition.

 

[Gunz]

The SRO at my sons' high school was a short, obese lady deputy. Big high school, big student population, an out-of-shape SRO who could only waddle. Not trying to slam her...but really?

 

[Grunt]

The SRO at my sons' high school was a short, obese lady deputy. Big high school, big student population, an out-of-shape SRO who could only waddle. Not trying to slam her...but really?

That's the problem with the SRO program in a lot of places. It's often staffed with problem children and/or those awaiting retirement within a year or so. I looked at my son as my treasure that I entrusted to the school system for an 8 hour period. If he had a *protector* at school, I wanted it to be a capable person and not a non-hacker!

 

[Poccington]

@Poccington, is your issue with age (19 is too young in your view) or with civilian ownership of weapons generally?

I’d think the Irish would understand the core purpose of our Second Amendment better than most.

Apologies for the late reply mate.

The age thing just baffles me somewhat... If I'm under 21 I can't legally buy alcohol but if I'm a citizen of good standing, I can buy firearms? Purely on a logical basis I find that bemusing. I do personally think it's just needless for a 19 year old civilian to own firearms etc. but that's just coming from someone who hasn't grown up in a country where firearms ownership is so commonplace, so it's gonna seem strange to me anyway?

I'm not against civilian ownership of firearms at all. Ireland has absurdly strict gun control which goes way beyond the point of reasonable, IMO. At the same time, I don't think it's unreasonable for there to be controls in place which people must adhere to before being allowed purchase firearms, such as mandatory training, a max number of firearms owned by a single person etc. but then you have the issues which @Maraurder06 alluded to, who provides the training? What are the standards? Does it mean they have to register all their firearms? etc. and that's before even broaching the Second Amendment topic. Plus with the amount of firearms already in circulation, is it just a case of closing the door after the horse has bolted?

I don't have the answers and again, I'm just someone on the outside looking in but it's just madness to me that as these events happen, the fact that the shooters were aided in their task by their easy accessibility to firearms, is just not really even attempted to be addressed.

PS. If a hostile government ever acts the bollocks in Ireland again they'll get pint glasses launched at them

 

[Kraut783]

The SRO at my sons' high school was a short, obese lady deputy. Big high school, big student population, an out-of-shape SRO who could only waddle. Not trying to slam her...but really?

SRO positions are often sought out by people who....

- Are tired of shift work.
- weren't really good street cops to begin with, and were probably horrible at CID.
- Trying to make the family happy with weekends and holidays off.
- Tired of the street.
- burned out of investigations, but don't feel like going back to shift work on the street.
- Are close to retirement.
- just needing a break

Not every department is the same, some school districts have their own PD's. Our department has had a few bad SROs...but right now we got a good lot, a few are actually former SWAT.

Being an SRO, you also have to put up with the petty politics of the school district and parents who are a pain in the ass, as well as the microscope when something happens at a school.

If you are a go getter, your not going to want to be assigned to a school as a SRO. Kinda like a Ranger sitting in a guard tower at a camp in Iraq....

 

[Gunz]

SRO positions are often sought out by people who....

- Are tired of shift work.
- weren't really good street cops to begin with, and were probably horrible at CID.
- Trying to make the family happy with weekends and holidays off.
- Tired of the street.
- burned out of investigations, but don't feel like going back to shift work on the street.
- Are close to retirement.
- just needing a break

Not every department is the same, some school districts have their own PD's. Our department has had a few bad SROs...but right now we got a good lot, a few are actually former SWAT.

Being an SRO, you also have to put up with the petty politics of the school district and parents who are a pain in the ass, as well as the microscope when something happens at a school.

If you are a go getter, your not going to want to be assigned to a school as a SRO. Kinda like a Ranger sitting in a guard tower at a camp in Iraq....

I get it, brother...and absolutely understandable. If I were a LEO there's no way I'd want to be at a high school every day.

 

[Marauder06]

My question about terrorism relates to the specific case of the two gangbangers who planned on shooting up a high school dance so they could take out a gang rival. I was curious about the "terrorism" charge and am mainly interested to know if there is a different between the criminal definition of terrorism and the political / military one. There did not appear to be any broader political

Terrorism - Wikipedia

“Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.”

The thing about Wikipedia, though, is that it's often contradictory or incomplete. There are probably a dozen or more definitions of the term on the site; some are authoritative and some are not. And in this case, it is also a very bad definition of the term. For one thing, violence does not have to be "indiscriminate" to be terrorism. Some terrorist acts are very "discriminate;" if a terrorist assassin kills one specific person in furtherance of his organization's political objectives, is that not still terrorism? I'm also not 100% good with the "financial" verbiage. If it's not tied to a larger political / ideological idea, then it seems like straight crime to me.

I think we had a big discussion on the definition of terrorism a few years back. Personally I don't think you'll ever get unanimous acceptance of any particular definition.

Fortunately, we have doctrine to answer questions like this, so we all don't have to sit around arguing about it.

Title 22, US Code:
"premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents."

If that definition holds in law enforcement as well, then again, I don't see how this particular crime becomes terrorism.

 

[Kraut783]

State and Federal might differ on Terrorism charges. While State charges might have terrorism in it.....it might not be the same as the Federal statute.

Texas doesn't have a terrorism charge...but we do have Terroristic Threat....that has nothing to do with International Terrorism.

Texas Penal Code - PENAL - PENAL § 22.07 | FindLaw

An actual FBI Terrorism case here in Dallas is being prosecuted in the state system due to the kids age. He is 17, an adult in Texas, but juvenile in the Federal system. A supreme court decision messed up him being certified as an adult in the Federal system....so we are going with a state charge.

Plano teen suspected in plotting ISIS-inspired attack called fellow students 'sitting ducks' | Crime | Dallas News

Some states have actual International Terrorism charges, New York, and I think, Minnesota.

 

[CDG]

Terrorism definitions typically have common elements, but the thing is that no one has the same definition. I remember doing a project for one of my classes that was about the differing definitions across departments of the US Government. If you were to add in worldwide definitions, there are likely dozens of differently worded definitions. I suppose it could be boiled down to the old "What is pornography" argument. You know it when you see it.

 

[SpitfireV]

Terrorism definitions typically have common elements, but the thing is that no one has the same definition. I remember doing a project for one of my classes that was about the differing definitions across departments of the US Government. If you were to add in worldwide definitions, there are likely dozens of differently worded definitions. I suppose it could be boiled down to the old "What is pornography" argument. You know it when you see it.

That sums it up. You guys are terrible for it- I'd have thought it makes sense to have an all of government definition but I suppose also that that would be difficult with such a massive enterprise.

 

[Marauder06]

That sums it up. You guys are terrible for it- I'd have thought it makes sense to have an all of government definition but I suppose also that that would be difficult with such a massive enterprise.

I could not agree more. It seems like it would be easy to do by executive fiat, but apparently it's not.

Heck, I'd like to have one governmental standard for dates but apparently that's too hard too.