• This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.

Ammo Prices

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
Administrator
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
13,194
Location
Not Afghanistan
#1
I'm sure most of you know, but for those that don't, ammo (5.56) prices have gone up about 4-5 cents a round in the last 6 weeks. Handgun ammo has gone up, but I haven't tracked it as much as 5.56. I also notice that there are more "Out of Stock" logos now as well.

There's your handy FYI of the day.
 

Diamondback 2/2

Infantry
Verified Military
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Messages
6,214
Location
Texas
#5
I just stocked up, found the best prices (online or in store) at Academy sports and out doors of all places. Cleaned them out, and still on the hunt for more. Found 500 rd cases of Federal American Eagle (black box) XM193 for $149.99 in the damn store!:thumbsup:
 

JBS

Leatherneck
Verified Military
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
2,152
Location
USA
#6
That, plus there are a few government contracts for huge amounts of ammo that have tapped some suppliers.
 

DA SWO

SOWT
Verified SOF
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
San Antonio Texas
#7
I just stocked up, found the best prices (online or in store) at Academy sports and out doors of all places. Cleaned them out, and still on the hunt for more. Found 500 rd cases of Federal American Eagle (black box) XM193 for $149.99 in the damn store!:thumbsup:
WalMart usually has good prices and will match Academy if you bring a receipt in.
DHS just announced an order for 450M (?) pistol rounds with another batch of 5.56, so 5.56, 9MM..40 and.45 will be hard to get for awhile.
 

JBS

Leatherneck
Verified Military
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
2,152
Location
USA
#9
WalMart usually has good prices and will match Academy if you bring a receipt in.
DHS just announced an order for 450M (?) pistol rounds with another batch of 5.56, so 5.56, 9MM..40 and.45 will be hard to get for awhile.
SOWT, your important post is a great illustrator on how people don't pay attention to a Goddamn thing.

450 million rounds of ammo for the Department of Homeland Security. For ammo.
That's a $140 to $150 million contract +/-

To give you an idea, the entire US Marine Corps budget for small arms ammunition between 2001 and 2007 has ranged annually from $140 million to $250 million- INCLUDING THE TWO WARS IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ. Only in 2003 was there a spike in procurement when we broke $430 million, around the surge. And we shoot the hell out of some ammo.

What does the DHS need $150 million worth of ammo for? They aren't exactly known for protracted shooting engagements, or the doctrine of fire & maneuver.

...
 

policemedic

Verified SWAT
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
4,826
Location
USA
#11
To give you an idea, the entire US Marine Corps budget for small arms ammunition between 2001 and 2007 has ranged annually from $140 million to $250 million- INCLUDING THE TWO WARS IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ. Only in 2003 was there a spike in procurement when we broke $430 million, around the surge. And we shoot the hell out of some ammo.
Then the Marines need to shoot more :sneaky:

OK, that probably sounded a little snarky, but it's true of all the armed services. Despite the fact that the mission is to kill people and break things, US servicemen and women simply don't shoot enough-particularly with handguns, but I'd argue this also true with M4s and such. I've yet to find someone in the service who thinks they shoot enough, and that includes guys in SOF (of course, SOF guys like to shoot).

What does the DHS need $150 million worth of ammo for? They aren't exactly known for protracted shooting engagements, or the doctrine of fire & maneuver.
It's not about how many rounds are fired in one firefight; it's about training. For example, I just trained 4 new guys for our team and they fired more 5.56 in 3 days than I did in Infantry BRM and ARM.

Also, keep in mind DHS runs the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. FLETC has multiple campuses, they train more than just the feds, and when you go there the ammo is provided. They also have the Coast Guard, the Secret Service and the Federal Air Marshals under their umbrella. FAMS and USSS shoot a lot, probably more than most agencies.

450 million over 5 years is 90 million rounds a year for an agency that has to supply something like 7 or 8 police outfits with training and duty ammo. Given that some agencies require quarterly training and qualification, that doesn't seem like a lot.

Also keep in mind that DHS has some roughly 240, 000 employees. I'm not sure of the tooth-to-tail ratio, but it's something to think about.
 

policemedic

Verified SWAT
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
4,826
Location
USA
#12
JBS,
Here's some more BP expanding news for you.

http://www.infowars.com/after-huge-ammo-buy-dhs-purchases-bullet-resistant-booths/

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/at...ement-dhs-ice-2012-03-12?reflink=MW_news_stmp

So that's up to 450 million rounds of .40 S&W and a bunch of mobile, friendly neighborhood checkpoints.

Sleep well, Citizen.
Yeah, not a fan of the whole VIPR concept. It strikes me as overreaching by the TSA. I know a lot of cops who take trains in clothes, and I'm waiting for the first story when some TSA dork tries to stop one of them-particularly if it's after they got off the bloody train. I can't see that ending well for the TSA.

The mobile checkpoint concept annoys me as well. Didn't like it driving through San Diego, won't like it anyplace else.
 

JBS

Leatherneck
Verified Military
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
2,152
Location
USA
#13
Then the Marines need to shoot more :sneaky:

OK, that probably sounded a little snarky, but it's true of all the armed services. Despite the fact that the mission is to kill people and break things, US servicemen and women simply don't shoot enough-particularly with handguns, but I'd argue this also true with M4s and such. I've yet to find someone in the service who thinks they shoot enough, and that includes guys in SOF (of course, SOF guys like to shoot).



It's not about how many rounds are fired in one firefight; it's about training. For example, I just trained 4 new guys for our team and they fired more 5.56 in 3 days than I did in Infantry BRM and ARM.

Also, keep in mind DHS runs the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. FLETC has multiple campuses, they train more than just the feds, and when you go there the ammo is provided. They also have the Coast Guard, the Secret Service and the Federal Air Marshals under their umbrella. FAMS and USSS shoot a lot, probably more than most agencies.

450 million over 5 years is 90 million rounds a year for an agency that has to supply something like 7 or 8 police outfits with training and duty ammo. Given that some agencies require quarterly training and qualification, that doesn't seem like a lot.

Also keep in mind that DHS has some roughly 240, 000 employees. I'm not sure of the tooth-to-tail ratio, but it's something to think about.
I agree we need to shoot more! We always need to shoot more.

I did make a mistake in my post, though. The expenditure on small arms ammunition figure ($150 to $250 million) was for the ENTIRE DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY, not just the entire Marine Corps. So it was everyone in the Navy AND everyone who is in the Marine Corps, and who fought in Iraq AND Afghanistan during the years from 2001 to 2007, and who shot on the many Marine Corps and Navy ranges, and everyone who passes through Boot Camp and SOI (School of Infantry), and MCT (Marine Combat Training), and everywhere else across the globe where there is a Naval Installation or a Marine Corps Base- all of that ammo comes out to $150 to $250 million on average...


Regarding your numbers:
Actually there aren't 240,000 DHS employees, unless you count MILITARY PERSONNEL who may function in support to the DHS- which means you're counting their ammo allocation twice. Even then, after adding military, the 240,000 number is still high. Here are the actual numbers:

45000 - TSA
58000 Customs and Border Patrol
8300 US Immigration & Customs Enforcement
7000 US Secret Service, Agents and Uniformed
6500 FEMA
300 CBRN
40,000 US Coast Guard

There are 161,000 DHS employees total.
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=43230




Now compare the 161,000 mostly non-shooting DHS to the Dept. of Navy (actual 2012 numbers):

Active Duty: 323,773
  • Officers Officers: 53,120
  • Enlisted Enlisted: 266,146
  • Midshipmen Midshipmen: 4,507
Ready Reserve: 105,157 [As of Feb 2012 ]
  • Selected Reserves Selected Reserves: 64,118
  • Individual Ready Reserve Individual Ready Reserve: 41,039
Reserves currently mobilized: 4,668 [As of 03 Apr 2012]
Personnel on deployment: 47,943
Navy Department Civilian Employees: 203,609


That's close to 600,000 people counted in much the same way as we counted DHS- which means we counted people who push brooms, spackle walls, and pave parking lots just as hard in both cases.

Even if you subtract 40,000 in consideration of the IRR (Individual Ready Reserves), you're still talking 560,000 persons.


The mostly non-shooting DHS has an ammo allocation rougly 4 times greater per man than the US Navy and Marine Corps during a time of multi-front war.
 

JBS

Leatherneck
Verified Military
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
2,152
Location
USA
#14
Upon closer inspection, the number of DHS personnel seems to be somewhere near 200K, if we add the agriculture people, Animal & Plant Health Inspectors, the Environmental Measurments Labs, the Plum Island Animal Disease Cnter, the Computer Incident response Center, and a bunch of other (basically) non trigger pullers.:

U.S. Customs Service Treasury U.S. Customs and Border Protection
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
Immigration and Naturalization Service Justice U.S. Customs and Border Protection
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services
Federal Protective Service General Services Administration National Protection and Programs Directorate
Transportation Security Administration Transportation Transportation Security Administration
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center Treasury Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
(part) Agriculture U.S. Customs and Border Protection
Office for Domestic Preparedness Justice Responsibilities distributed within FEMA
Federal Emergency Management Agency none Federal Emergency Management Agency
Strategic National Stockpile
National Disaster Medical System Health and Human Services Returned to HHS, July, 2004
Nuclear Incident Response Team Energy Responsibilities distributed within FEMA
Domestic Emergency Support Teams Justice Responsibilities distributed within FEMA
National Domestic Preparedness Office FBI Responsibilities distributed within FEMA
CBRN Countermeasures Programs Energy Science & Technology Directorate
Environmental Measurements Laboratory Energy Science & Technology Directorate
National Biological Warfare
Defense Analysis Center Defense Science & Technology Directorate
Plum Island Animal Disease Center Agriculture Science & Technology Directorate
Federal Computer Incident Response Center General Services Administration US-CERT, Office of Cybersecurity and Communications
National Protection and Programs Directorate
National Communications System Defense Office of Cybersecurity and Communications
National Protection and Programs Directorate
National Infrastructure Protection Center FBI Office of Operations Coodination
Office of Infrastructure Protection
Energy Security and Assurance Program Energy Office of Infrastructure Protection
U.S. Coast Guard Transportation U.S. Coast Guard
U.S. Secret Service Treasury U.S. Secret Service
 

x SF med

the Troll
Moderator
Joined
Jan 1, 2007
Messages
10,317
Location
Not far from the south of Canada, 'Murica!
#15
What does the DHS need $150 million worth of ammo for? They aren't exactly known for protracted shooting engagements, or the doctrine of fire & maneuver.
Hmmmm.... maybe the current administration is afraid of the citizens of this contry and want to be prepared when ther is an armed uprising when that administration declares the Constitution Unconstitutional and enacts population control mesures "for the good of the citizens"...

cue music:
 

policemedic

Verified SWAT
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
4,826
Location
USA
#16
Upon closer inspection, the number of DHS personnel seems to be somewhere near 200K, if we add the agriculture people, Animal & Plant Health Inspectors, the Environmental Measurments Labs, the Plum Island Animal Disease Cnter, the Computer Incident response Center, and a bunch of other (basically) non trigger pullers.:

U.S. Customs Service Treasury U.S. Customs and Border Protection
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
Immigration and Naturalization Service Justice U.S. Customs and Border Protection
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services
Federal Protective Service General Services Administration National Protection and Programs Directorate
Transportation Security Administration Transportation Transportation Security Administration
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center Treasury Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
(part) Agriculture U.S. Customs and Border Protection
Office for Domestic Preparedness Justice Responsibilities distributed within FEMA
Federal Emergency Management Agency none Federal Emergency Management Agency
Strategic National Stockpile
National Disaster Medical System Health and Human Services Returned to HHS, July, 2004
Nuclear Incident Response Team Energy Responsibilities distributed within FEMA
Domestic Emergency Support Teams Justice Responsibilities distributed within FEMA
National Domestic Preparedness Office FBI Responsibilities distributed within FEMA
CBRN Countermeasures Programs Energy Science & Technology Directorate
Environmental Measurements Laboratory Energy Science & Technology Directorate
National Biological Warfare
Defense Analysis Center Defense Science & Technology Directorate
Plum Island Animal Disease Center Agriculture Science & Technology Directorate
Federal Computer Incident Response Center General Services Administration US-CERT, Office of Cybersecurity and Communications
National Protection and Programs Directorate
National Communications System Defense Office of Cybersecurity and Communications
National Protection and Programs Directorate
National Infrastructure Protection Center FBI Office of Operations Coodination
Office of Infrastructure Protection
Energy Security and Assurance Program Energy Office of Infrastructure Protection
U.S. Coast Guard Transportation U.S. Coast Guard
U.S. Secret Service Treasury U.S. Secret Service
You know, the interesting thing here is why the numbers don't add up. I pulled my 240,000 number from
Mission and Responsibilities

The Department's mission is to ensure a homeland that is safe, secure, and resilient against terrorism and other hazards. Our efforts are supported by an ever-expanding set of partners. Every day, the more than 240,000 men and women of the Department contribute their skills and experiences to this important mission. Our duties are wide-ranging, but our goal is clear: a safer, more secure America.
http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/responsibilities.shtm




I don't doubt your research skills or numbers, it's just funny that different sources come up with different numbers of employees.

My guesstimate is that the tooth-to-tail ratio at DHS is probably something on the order of 1:3 (SWAG based on my agency's numbers), and that it's probably slightly better than the military.


I'm not sure why you thought I was counting USCG's ammo allotment twice.


My feeling is that LEOs shoot more on average than most people in the military because military commanders cannot properly prioritize competing training demands. There are too many tasks that must be trained to dedicate sufficient time to the range, especially for pistols, and that's not even counting getting ammo, etc. That's what I've been told by several company and field grade officers. Off-topic, I think the military makes it batshit stupid hard to run a range and do relevant training, but... My view is that when push comes to shoot, you'd better be able to make rapid hits or be immediately reclassed to the cannon fodder CMF.

In any case, my question isn't why does DHS need so much ammo; it's why aren't we affording the Army, Marines, Navy, and Air Force the opportunity to shoot more? Why isn't it a priority to get Joe on the range and kill some Ivans, or steel, or whatever he needs to do in order to ensure he can kill our nation's enemies in the most efficient manner possible?
 

Dame

Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
2,268
Location
Black world
#17
SOWT, your important post is a great illustrator on how people don't pay attention to a Goddamn thing.

450 million rounds of ammo for the Department of Homeland Security. For ammo.
That's a $140 to $150 million contract +/-

To give you an idea, the entire US Marine Corps budget for small arms ammunition between 2001 and 2007 has ranged annually from $140 million to $250 million- INCLUDING THE TWO WARS IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ. Only in 2003 was there a spike in procurement when we broke $430 million, around the surge. And we shoot the hell out of some ammo.

What does the DHS need $150 million worth of ammo for? They aren't exactly known for protracted shooting engagements, or the doctrine of fire & maneuver.

...
Almost sounds like someone put the tear gas/guns/whateverthehellelse they are planning on arming the drones with under the ammo line item. (JAB's intergalactic death ray would definitely cost more than bullets and wouldn't look good as it's own line item.)

Like FF said, "Sleep well, Citizen."
 

pardus

Verified Military
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
9,992
#18
In any case, my question isn't why does DHS need so much ammo; it's why aren't we affording the Army, Marines, Navy, and Air Force the opportunity to shoot more? Why isn't it a priority to get Joe on the range and kill some Ivans, or steel, or whatever he needs to do in order to ensure he can kill our nation's enemies in the most efficient manner possible?
Because we are far too busy being trained with more important things, such as... that in ALL circumstances we can shoot in self defense but if we return fire on people shooting at us from a mosque we will go to jail for committing a war crime.
We must also sit through an annual driver safety course, sexual harassment course, DADT lectures, change of command ceremonies etc.....
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
Administrator
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
13,194
Location
Not Afghanistan
#19
We must also sit through an annual driver safety course,
I gots to call me some bullshit on this one. Anyone who has ever seen MRAPs drive on Bagram will know that there isn't one ounce of safety involved. Driving an MRAP on Bagram is the closest you can come to obtaining a "Double-0" number. Stop signs, crosswalks, speed limits, no passing zones...they matter not to the fabled MRAP driver.
 

pardus

Verified Military
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
9,992
#20
Well, it is a computer course... "We train to standard!" Hmm, what standard? "FRAGO! standby, opsec, IOTV, carry on!" Uhhh... roger...