The Afghanistan and Pakistan Thread

Kraut783

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Don't view AfPak in terms of religion, look at it within the construct of tribalism. Being Muslim matters less than being Pashtun. The Durand Line split Pashtun tribes. Any nation muscling in on the AfPak border with have to consider religion as well as tribal allegiances.
You are spot on AWP!
 

SpitfireV

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Don't view AfPak in terms of religion, look at it within the construct of tribalism. Being Muslim matters less than being Pashtun. The Durand Line split Pashtun tribes. Any nation muscling in on the AfPak border with have to consider religion as well as tribal allegiances.

I know some of you are tired of me saying it, but Pakistan must be destroyed if the region wants to evolve, The Durand line, religious conflicts, and tribalism have consigned three nations to a low to medium-scale war for eternity. Something has to give, something has to change.
Yes, hence why Pakistan have more culture in common than India does. Religion is still important, though. India using Afghanistan in any capacity is a non-event.
 

Ocoka

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The Taliban want a time-table for U.S. withdrawal before they sit down to negotiate with the AFG government.

Of course they do. 🙄 All they have to do to win is wait for us to leave. I give them (with PAK/ISI support) two years post-US withdrawal to take over the whole show.
 
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DA SWO

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The Taliban want a time-table for U.S. withdrawal before they sit down to negotiate with the AFG government.

Of course they do. 🙄 All they have to do to win is wait for us to leave. I give them (with PAK/ISI support) two years post-US withdrawal to take over the whole show.
The people of Afghanistan deserve what happens. They had a chance and blew it via corruption/indifference.
We've lost a lot of folks, and it's time to come home.
Those who say those lives lost are wasted are wrong. AQ hasn't mounted a major terror attack on the US homeland since 2001. They gave us peace and a measure of prosperity.
The mistakes were essentially made by politicians, and very senior managers (I refuse to call them leaders).
The trigger pullers were awesome, as always.
 

AWP

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Traditionally the Afghans go to ground during the winter. That isn't happening this year. The TB know they have the Afghans and NATO on the ropes, they just have to keep up some level of pressure and we'll fold. They know this and that's why want a timeline. Even with heavy Soviet support, the Muj made significant gains in two years, forcing a set of accords within three years, which then kicked off a 4 year civil war, ending in the rise of the TB. I think the AFG gov't is in worse shape than in '89 and with less support than provided after the Soviet departure. Air support, ISR, and SOF are propping up the country.

If they last 2 years after our departure that says more about the TB than it does the AFG gov't.
 

Ocoka

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Trump needs to open a history book once in awhile. Any intelligent person who was alive at the time knows quite well why the USSR invaded AFG...to shore up the Communist regime.

If by "terrorists" he means the mujahadeen, they were Freedom Fighters to us.
 
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Devildoc

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Trump needs to open a history book once in awhile. Any intelligent person who was alive at the time knows quite well why the USSR invaded AFG...to shore up the Communist regime.
That was one theory, and goes in hand with the need to secure their southern border. The Soviets were legitimately afraid that the US could have influence and divert attention away from Europe.
 

Ocoka

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That was one theory, and goes in hand with the need to secure their southern border. The Soviets were legitimately afraid that the US could have influence and divert attention away from Europe.
Not a theory, Doc. Shoring up a pro-Communist regime in Kabul was central to achieving the other concerns you mention, a secure S. border and countering US influence.
 

Devildoc

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Not a theory, Doc. Shoring up a pro-Communist regime in Kabul was central to achieving the other concerns you mention, a secure S. border and countering US influence.
Let me rephrase. That was one arm of a multi arm approach. What is interesting, and with 20/20 hindsight, the Soviets were extremely anxious about us nosing around in the region. for decades they totally misread our intentions, and they thought that we wanted to establish a foothold in Afghanistan when all we wanted to do is normalize relations. Of course, if normalizing relations meant making the Soviets uncomfortable then......
 

AWP

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Pick up The Great Gamble by Gregory Feifer. It goes into detail on Politburo meetings and Soviet motivations. Yes, the Soviet's "intervention" driven by a desire to prop up the Communist regime because they feared the Afghan Muj would topple the gov't; one way or another, they feared, the Americans would gain a foothold.

Go back to the 50's and 60's, Afghanistan was rather moden, even Westernized in the cities. The West spent hundreds of millions on the country, prompting the Sovs to do the same. We already had good relations with Pakistan and the Sovs viewed us creeping closer to their borders. The notion fo a warm water port is a hundred year old goal turned into a modern myth; those dreams didn't exist in the 21st century.

The Soviets started prepping the ground as early as the spring of 1979. They went with a small SOF footprint that escalated into a massive conventional commitment. Sound familiar?
 

Cookie_

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Go back to the 50's and 60's, Afghanistan was rather moden, even Westernized in the cities.
When I got back from deployment, my great-grandmother wanted to know if Kandahar was still as pretty as she remembered.
Apparently she and my great grandfather had taken a trip in 1974 and visited Mumbai, Karachi, Kandahar, and Tehran.

She said Kandahar and Tehran were very similar to the USA at the time. She was amazed the women wore pants and there were disco bars.
 

Devildoc

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Pick up The Great Gamble by Gregory Feifer. It goes into detail on Politburo meetings and Soviet motivations. Yes, the Soviet's "intervention" driven by a desire to prop up the Communist regime because they feared the Afghan Muj would topple the gov't; one way or another, they feared, the Americans would gain a foothold.

Go back to the 50's and 60's, Afghanistan was rather moden, even Westernized in the cities. The West spent hundreds of millions on the country, prompting the Sovs to do the same. We already had good relations with Pakistan and the Sovs viewed us creeping closer to their borders. The notion fo a warm water port is a hundred year old goal turned into a modern myth; those dreams didn't exist in the 21st century.

The Soviets started prepping the ground as early as the spring of 1979. They went with a small SOF footprint that escalated into a massive conventional commitment. Sound familiar?
I saw pics of some of the Afghani cities in the 50s and 60s. They were beautiful. As was Tehran, Beirut, Mogadishu, Bagdad....sensing a theme....
 

RackMaster

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I saw pics of some of the Afghani cities in the 50s and 60s. They were beautiful. As was Tehran, Beirut, Mogadishu, Bagdad....sensing a theme....
Seeing the city of Kabul from TV Hill, you can see the remnants of a once beautiful city. I'd love to go back one day and visit without worry of being blown up. But I doubt it will happen in my lifetime.
 

Ocoka

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So...a high school dropout with JEM suicide-vehicle bombed an Indian security convoy and killed at least 46. Since JEM is a creation of ISI, maybe India should nuke the fuck out of Pakistan and wipe the whole fuckin abortion off the map.

👍
 
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