The "All Things Politics" Thread, AKA "What's Wrong With Both Sides"

amlove21

Pararescue
Administrator
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
5,370
Location
The City of Destiny
SSMP
SOF Mentor
Staff Edit (12JAN20):

A few days ago the Shadowspear staff temporarily locked all of the major politically-focused threads on the site. We ultimately decided to delete or archive several of those threads and combined two of the most popular, "What's Wrong With The Left" and "What's Wrong With The Right," into this one. Our intent was to reduce the number of political discussions--many of which were redundant, ill-informed, and/or needlessly divisive--taking place on Shadowspear and refocus on our core values and shared interests: the military in general, and the Special Operations community in particular.

Our reasoning was simple: the politics threads on most Internet forums are dumpster fires, wherein the staff spends 95%+ of their time to police a handful of members and the fallout. We're not going to have that here.

At a time when our country is losing its collective mind we'd like to think we're all above that. We hold ourselves to a higher standard than those "mere" civilians, right? We place our service members and public servants (cops, firefighters, paramedics, etc.) on a pedestal, right?

On this board, it's time to earn the pedestal. A civil discussion is an exchange of ideas, not name calling...and there's far too much of that going on for anyone to say it doesn't happen.

That said, we recognize the high level of interest in politics among our members, and we see value in professional and respectful discussions and disagreements. We are therefore reopening this thread. Put your political posts here. If you think a particular topic warrants a specific thread, go ahead and start it. If the staff thinks it belongs here, we'll move it.

The regular site rules still apply, and the staff's tolerance for jackassery is low. Comport yourselves accordingly.


-the site staff

-----
So it seems to be a topic of conversation that is constantly referenced; so I feel like it's own thread is deserved.

It would be awesome to see a lot of insightful discussions on our political system and the two parties contained therein; it would also be nice to have a live in nanny that looks like Harley Dean so I have appropriately managed my expectations.

We can start here, noted "lefty" Sam Harris exploring his issues with the left and his view of classic liberalism. Enjoy!



ETA- I'll comb through some of the threads and move associated valuable posts to the thread when able.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ooh-Rah

Marine
Moderator
Joined
Sep 12, 2012
Messages
11,559
Plenty of threads to post snarky memes and videos....let’s please keep this thread on topic.
 

Devildoc

Verified Military
Joined
Nov 3, 2015
Messages
5,148
Location
Durham, NC
I see 'the left' as different than the DNC, just as 'the right' is not the GOP. I think historically the global goals of the DNC and GOP have been in the same ball park: quality health care, strong defense, taking care of our neighbors. The difference has been in the means to the end.

I see the left, especially the fringe left, as a splinter group of the DNC. I cannot fathom that Pelosi, Waters, Schumer, all speak for democrats, or even those who are liberal. But what I find sad is that this far-left ideology is trying to push all non-republicans to a far-left groupthink where anything short of a socialist, government-run agenda is anathema to the DNC at large.
 

CDG

Mittens
Verified Military
Joined
Apr 15, 2011
Messages
7,079
Location
Off safe. One away.
SSMP
SOF Mentor
My personal opinion is that the issues with "the left" stem from something @Marauder06 mentioned in the Trump Presidency thread. The idea that words allow for violent response. The right has certainly had it's share of people threatening violence, militias, etc. The difference I see is that the right appears to threaten violence as a last resort in response to a breach of the Constitution. "If you try and take my guns away", "If you try and repeal the 2nd Amendment", etc. The violence advocated and perpetrated by the left is in response to, "I got my feelings hurt", "I don't like your words", "Your opinion triggers me". There were videos of people being beaten in the streets for being Trump supporters after the election. Kids at schools were beaten for saying they voted for Trump in school-held mock elections. That level of mental and emotional instability is frightening. There is a reason I go out in public as little as possible, and maintain as low of a profile as possible when doing so. I know what I'm about, and the last thing I need is to have a situation go sideways because a group starts feeling froggy over a political viewpoint, or a t shirt I'm wearing. And yes, I am legitimately concerned enough about the way the millennial left conducts themselves that I intentionally avoid going out. It's not hyperbole.
 

DA SWO

SOWT
Verified SOF
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
9,523
Location
San Antonio Texas
The DNC sold itself to George Soros and he is taking the party over.
I don't think they understand it yet, and it is probably too late anyway (see yesterdays NYC primary defeat of a 10 term incumbent).
We will see how socialism plays itself out in a few years, and I doubt the outcome will be any diferent than any other country (China being an exception).
 

Topkick

Verified Military
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
1,563
SSMP
Military Mentor
In regards to politicians on the left, the problem with Schumer, Pelosi, and the likes are that they will say anything to get re-hired. IMO, its obvious that they don't give a fuck about where this country is headed, they just say what they think their base want to hear in order to keep their job. This has been very divisive and that's what they want so they can stay in power. I hear people say that Pelosi scolded Waters for her recent comments, but in that same tweet she said it was all Trumps fault. This is a subtle way of letting Waters completely off the hook. As a senior member of the so- called left, she is leading from behind.

In regards to the sheep, a leftist education system is mass producing a population of followers instead of free-thinking proud Americans. In High Schools and at University across the nation, educators are conditioning young people to believe that everything American is bad and that we should be ashamed of our country. When I went back to finish my bachelors a few years ago, I took a history class and felt that I had to stand and share with the young students some of the positive things Reagan and Nixon accomplished because the Professor just beat them both down, while lavishing nothing but praise on Kennedy and Clinton. It was ridiculous, IMO. I find it a bit crazy that we raise our kids with values and then insist that they go to college, pay huge money to have those values erased from their memory and reformed into a leftist. I just hope I have parented well enough that my kid doesn't take the bait.
 

Diamondback 2/2

Infantry
Verified Military
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Messages
6,961
Location
Tejas
SSMP
Military Mentor
I think that although in theory, a lot of what the left want to do is good. The problem, is that it is always based upon theory and not factually and functionally doable.

I think free healthcare is something we can do, but I also think it will raise taxes and lower the quality of care (i.e. like it did in Canada).

I think a set baseline income is something that would be awesome for a lot of struggling people. But you steal their incentives to go earn it, to start a business, etc.

I've got no problem with gay rights, totally think the gender B.S. is just fucking dumb. You are what you are biologically born with...period...

That said, I disagree with the gun control ideals, the people control ideals, and the idea that I cannot make my own decisions on who I want to like, dislike, etc. Racism sucks, and I disagree with it, but I also realize that some people are that way, and it's not my place to tell them shit, as long as they are not hurting anyone. And getting your feelings hurt ain't hurt. I can respect someone sexual orientation, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it, or be friendly to that person or whatever the fuck. The left thinks they can change your opinions by shaming you or shunning you into agreeing with them. That is the main aspect for my dislike and at sometimes hate for the left leaning loons.

I will say there's a difference between the "I know whats better for you arrogantly left leaners" and the "I'll scream until I get my way left leaning nutbags" but it's a pretty fine line.
 

Blizzard

Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
2,233
The "all or nothing", uncompromising approach that is touched upon at the beginning of the Sam Harris clip is certainly a piece of the puzzle -- and probably a huge piece.

When talking heads of the "left" take a position, and it's subsequently parroted by followers (see additional comment below), they don't leave themselves an out. To paraphrase from Powell's primer on leadership, their ego is so closely tied to their position, that when their position goes, so goes their ego. As a result, any debate becomes very personal to them; their personal worth is at stake. That's why many of the arguments are so emotional.

I'm not sure there is enough critical thinking in a lot of "debate" anymore, regardless of which side of the discussion one falls. That is another fundamental issue. The sensationalism we see from the media only serves to promote this; get extreme viewpoints to together and let them shout it out because everyone loves the circus -- it drives the ratings. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Diamondback 2/2

Infantry
Verified Military
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Messages
6,961
Location
Tejas
SSMP
Military Mentor
So, my question would be, is there a problem with the right? And if yes, what are they?
Historically (as in the last 50 years) the right has become overly focused on cutting taxes without cutting social programs. You can't have both, if you are going to keep social programs, you have to fund them.

I think the right claims to be small government, but yet they increase military and law enforcement funding and personnel. They claim less regulation but pass laws that may not directly contradict the constitution but have second and third effects.

They have a problem separating religion from the politics, which is mainly their base.

They believe in the expansion model as much as the left, just they want to use ground and resources to do it. Which is horrifying for our natural resources in the future.

They are just as much liars as the left...
 

Topkick

Verified Military
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
1,563
SSMP
Military Mentor
Yeah, the right has problems. For one, they want to revamp or take away social programs that have been and still are successful, because they continue withdraw from those accounts. Thats divisive.
 

Diamondback 2/2

Infantry
Verified Military
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Messages
6,961
Location
Tejas
SSMP
Military Mentor
Yeah, the right has problems. For one, they want to revamp or take away social programs that have been and still are successful, because they continue withdraw from those accounts. Thats divisive.
Well they claim to want that, but when have you actually seen them do that. Sure they may bump the numbers (age and ammounts) but when do they actually come in and 100% "yeah that is no more"? I haven't seen it, hell the whole dreamer bullshit is still on the table for immigration reform. It's all bullshit IMHO.
 

Topkick

Verified Military
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
1,563
SSMP
Military Mentor
Well they claim to want that, but when have you actually seen them do that. Sure they may bump the numbers (age and ammounts) but when do they actually come in and 100% "yeah that is no more"? I haven't seen it, hell the whole dreamer bullshit is still on the table for immigration reform. It's all bullshit IMHO.
Paul Ryan basically promised to revamp all social programs this year but Trump ran on a promise that he wouldn't allow it. I think this may have something to do with Ryan announcing retirement. Just a hunch.
 

Dienekes

Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
323
Location
DC Area
Honestly, excluding the methods, the problems with the left are similar to the problems of the right because the vast majority of either side refuse to delve into the facts of issues and determine their own views. They hear it from someone they respect and then read an article or two that reinforces that view alone and BOOM! View solidified and they feel good about their "informed" decision. The more specific problem with the right is that it is full of hypocrites. Most want welfare cut, but only as long as it's the kind where they don't benefit. If they stand to lose, they will absolutely put up a solid keyboard warrior fight, but when it comes to the "good of the country" as many propose, they are all talk and no walk. Then, you have people who refuse to allow a slight tax increase based solely on principle of the party, but demand a military that will wipe out the three toughest militaries in the world simultaneously. I would comment on the left, but I've tuned them out completely. Not a damn thing those on the news-making side of the left do surprises me at all anymore.

In truth, I don't believe that the problem lies with only on one party. I firmly believe that the problem lies with a general lack of civic duty and individual responsibility in the public at large. People believe that their rights are truly inalienable, that it is not even within the realm of possibility that they could possibly be taken away even in the event of war or true economic collapse. Essentially this is a cultural problem where people would rather sit on the couch Twitter-surfing than trying to improve their communities or lives or even make a glass of water, and not the world's greatest economy nor the world's most powerful military can save the country from a disease that infects at the individual level. Finally, social media is a devastating accelerant to the disease. I believe social media is absolutely the fucking devil reincarnate in the form of technology sent to ruin the world. Black Mirrors on Netflix may be hit or miss entertainment but the show's message is undeniable. US citizens want easy. They vote for easy, and they live easy. Yet easy does not ensure longevity.
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
Administrator
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
15,995
Location
Not Afghanistan
Both sides:

- Are allowing the far end of the spectrum to drive their parties.
- Suffer from a lack of leadership and vision (though this is undercut by the above)
- Are emotional and make emotional choices.
- Are unwilling to compromise.
- Want more gov't control of our lives.
- Are terrified of alienating their respective bases, forgetting that their base will still fall in line with the party.

The Left:

- Much more emotional than the Right
- Have tied their future to special interest groups and immigrants
- Exploit those groups without offering anything meaningful in return
- This then drives more of the party to the Left
- Have preached a quasi-Socialist view for so long a new generation is convinced that is the path to freedom/ crushing the Right.
- Have managed to change societal rules with regards to behavior and are now convinced they carry weight in excess of their numbers (this may be true)
- Have the media and entertainment industries on their side
- Leverages social media better than the Right

The Right:

- Too tied to evangelicals
- Should have utterly crushed any Neo-Nazi association from the alt-Right.
- Too many old white guys who are out of touch with much of the country.
- Unwilling to bend and "modernize." I see this as a function of the above.

I think the Left is more detached from reality than the Right, but has control over the media, social media, and pushing social agendas that slowly alter our landscape. I think it COULD one day have the upper hand unless the Right is willing to move more to the center. Think of it as boxing out during a rebound, positioning itself for a better shot at swing voters.

Ultimately, this is all mental masturbation. We're heading for a civil war. Everything is cyclical and history is no exception. Bloodshed is unfortunate and unwanted, but inevitable. We're at a point of brinkmanship within our country, our Cuban Missile Crisis as it were.
 

Blizzard

Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
2,233
A core issue for the "right" is simply that of messaging. Regardless of their stance on an issue, they fail to control the message. They find more ways to fuck up their messaging than the Vikings do of finding ways to blow Super Bowl opportunities. Sometimes it simply comes down to the people delivering the message; look no further than Trump but the examples are virtually endless. In some cases it's as though they haven't even researched their position, even it's the "correct" one. As a result, they look inept when attempting to justify it. They continually allow the "left" to shape their position on issues, which is unfathomable.

Similarly, the right has allowed itself to be saddled with the perception, which may be a reality to an extent, of being unable or unwilling to change/move with the times. As a result, they come across as aging and disconnected. Their inability shape this perception may ultimately tie back to their incompetent messaging. They've pissed away every opportunity in the past couple decades to change that message.

As with the "left", critical thinking across the board is not a strength.
 

AlpineTXN

Unverified
Joined
Apr 20, 2018
Messages
8
Ultimately, this is all mental masturbation. We're heading for a civil war. Everything is cyclical and history is no exception. Bloodshed is unfortunate and unwanted, but inevitable. We're at a point of brinkmanship within our country, our Cuban Missile Crisis as it were.
It's hard for me to imagine a true civil war scenario, although we have already seen pockets of violence and tension. Do you think it could escalate into more widespread scenarios? Regardless, we are definitely in a civil war of ideas. Funny enough, I was talking to one of my left-leaning friends about this the other day, and she was shocked that I thought the right was winning the debates thus far.

Hopefully the pendulum can swing back into more rational territory. It would be a worst-case scenario to see that kind of conflict here, especially given the reality of how great we all have it. Sure, things could always be better, but for the vast majority of Americans, there is no better place to be. Human nature at its finest.
 

Blizzard

Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
2,233
...especially given the reality of how great we all have it. Sure, things could always be better, but for the vast majority of Americans, there is no better place to be.
That is another interesting point in all this. The way we talk about issues and the context of those issues is so much different than it was 50+ years ago. Our society has changed so much and, frankly, we have it very, very good.

It reminds me of a discussion on Jerry Seinfeld's show "Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee". In one episode, Jerry is riding with Kevin Hart and during their discussion the topic of the kids and their wealth comes up:

Kevin Hart: "My daughter got right to the point: 'Dad, are we rich? Are we rich, yes or no? I said, 'Baby, we're doing well, but understand why.' I said, 'When you work hard, you put your mind to something, anything can happen and that's what I want you to do.'

Jerry Seinfeld: "You know what I say? I am. You're not."

Hart then goes on to talk about growing up in his neighborhood in Philadelphia where we could literally die any day.

But then Seinfeld says something kind of profound. He says, "It's gonna be different for them. Your problem was, things are bad, I gotta make it good. Their problem's gonna be, things are good, why do I feel bad?"

Generally speaking, that's kind of where we're at as a society as well. Things are good. That is not to suggest there aren't real issues or neighborhoods that are problematic but many of us have experienced other parts of the world and understand just how good we really have it. It provides some context. This shouldn't keep a society from progressing but it's a much different narrative than one we hear on a daily basis.
 
Top