Composites Student checking in

Draneol

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Jan 30, 2014
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42
Location
Seattle, WA
Student of composite manufacturing and repair. Military and Civilian grades, I plan to join the WAARNG, not sure as what though. I'm not sure what else to say other than it's nice to be onboard and will be reading the forums.

I will be working on a ceramic plate for ballistics protection as my capstone project when I get that far in. Debating if it should be a kevlar based polycarbonate with nylon and boron carbide, but still in debate on what material to use as a backplate, I know a couple thin layers of resin and rubber for impact absorption/dispursal, but debating on whether or not to use some form of spinel ceramic plates along the back as well as a form of spall liner. Only thing that concerns me would be UV exposure or temperature exposure making the spinel ceramic plates brittle.
 
Welcome. Regarding the second paragraph: I have no idea what your saying. Sounds like Farsi to me and I don't understand that also. Welcome again.:ROFLMAO::sneaky:

F.M.

Kevlar is a very strong fiber, if you make it into sheets and layer enough of them, they can be used to create ballistic vests. boron carbide is a ceramic most commonly used to make ballistic plates and vehicle armors. You would use Kevlar in boron carbide as you would steel rebar in concrete. Or bones in the human body to muscle tissue, polycarbonic resin would be like using superglue and stitches to seal a persons wound.

Vehicles like the Abrams for example has a rubber soled boron carbonic plates reinforced with nylon and kevlar, built upon several layers to include lead and depleted uranium. It's what makes up the armored plates with exception of a thin box with explosive material placed on the very surface of the tanks armored plates. I would imagine similar, but thinner layered armor would be found on the Stryker, the big mine trucks, and the Bradley?

Basically what I'm planning and hoping to do for my capstone project eventually is producing a form of tank armor plate that is wearable in a vest.
 
Kevlar is a very strong fiber, if you make it into sheets and layer enough of them, they can be used to create ballistic vests. boron carbide is a ceramic most commonly used to make ballistic plates and vehicle armors. You would use Kevlar in boron carbide as you would steel rebar in concrete. Or bones in the human body to muscle tissue, polycarbonic resin would be like using superglue and stitches to SEAL a persons wound.

Vehicles like the Abrams for example has a rubber soled boron carbonic plates reinforced with nylon and kevlar, built upon several layers to include lead and depleted uranium. It's what makes up the armored plates with exception of a thin box with explosive material placed on the very surface of the tanks armored plates. I would imagine similar, but thinner layered armor would be found on the Stryker, the big mine trucks, and the Bradley?

Basically what I'm planning and hoping to do for my capstone project eventually is producing a form of tank armor plate that is wearable in a vest.

Sounds like you know your job. Good.:thumbsup:

F.M.
 
Welcome, let me know when you need someone to test your plates.

NP, my school has a lot of DoD contracts for testing, have a bunch at Naval Station Bremerton, and Joint Base-Lewis McChord who are very interested to. Focus of my projects aside from core curriculum is body armor, while a couple classmates are focusing on penetration munitions, such as materials for use in bullets and anti-tank rounds. Others in class are focusing towards composites for ship armors, aircraft armors, and armor plates for use on ground vehicles. And then the others who look towards more commercialized materials for cars, passenger planes, and so fourth.

School is hoping to come up with the next Chabbum Armor like the University of Texas and UCLA did, or the next SABOT round like Georgia Tech created. I would have to look into permit and material transfer requirements before I can send any samples or materials to anyone outside of established people in JBLM, and NS Bremerton. All military grade projects and materials we use and create have to go through them first.
 
NP, my school has a lot of DoD contracts for testing, have a bunch at Naval Station Bremerton, and Joint Base-Lewis McChord who are very interested to. Focus of my projects aside from core curriculum is body armor, while a couple classmates are focusing on penetration munitions, such as materials for use in bullets and anti-tank rounds. Others in class are focusing towards composites for ship armors, aircraft armors, and armor plates for use on ground vehicles. And then the others who look towards more commercialized materials for cars, passenger planes, and so fourth.

School is hoping to come up with the next Chabbum Armor like the University of Texas and UCLA did, or the next SABOT round like Georgia Tech created. I would have to look into permit and material transfer requirements before I can send any samples or materials to anyone outside of established people in JBLM, and NS Bremerton. All military grade projects and materials we use and create have to go through them first.


I know one of your guest lecturers... listen to him, he's done this for twice as long as you've been alive, and he's the one that found the flaws in Dragon Skin... so, when you do get around to trying to build the perfect armor, don't use that as a model, or if you do, use better adhesives, layered plates and exterior construction.
 
x SF med don't take this the wrong way, but Dragon Skin was a farce, it never had any true merit. Weight was too great, the fact they used the types of resins they did, Dragon Skin was more of a novelty item, rather than a real solution. In its five minutes of fame years ago, it was interesting, but in practicality, it was no different than giving Somali's nylon shirts saying they've been blessed with voodoo before sending them against first world militaries.

If we are speaking of the same lecturer, his data and all the other data generated from the Dragon Skin armor, is a template of what not to do. In flat, level terrain in perfect asymetric environment with room temperatures of 75 degrees, it was workable, but for project guidelines for my emphasis of study, it has to have 360 degree coverage, including sides, less than 35lbs, and offer same protection whether laying sideways, or upside down. For the Navy's guidelines it has to also provide buoyancy for use in 7ft of water. Doesn't need to displace all weight, but enough to displace 80lbs off the wearer when in an aquatic environment. With protection requirement from 7.62mm rounds with partial stopping to 12.7mm, so if the object in front gets hit, it wont go through to hit the object behind it. For the Army's goals they don't really care for water displacement, but require a transparant outercoating, with an airgap just behind it with an access point to get to the airgap.

It also cannot channel energy towards limbs, it has to displace energy outwards from the rear of the vest. Which is heavily nontraditional compared to currently used body armors, which transfer energy of impact towards the left or right shoulder, or hips based on the point of impact.

The way dragon skin was produced, it provided neither water displacement, nor met criteria for protection coverages. At least per the data I have in class, any kind of moderate or extreme angle, went right through the armor and into the object it was protecting.

Personally I'm thinking more towards boron carbonic sheets in front of titanium/fiberglass mesh, with a series of titanium chain link across the front of that with an air gap. with a layer of spinel ceramic scales over the front and rear. At least on computer sims, my specs would meet water displacement criteria, and withstand the 45 direct impacts from 7.62mm rounds. And the army would get the airgap and transparent covering they want. A couple of other classmates are doing some different stuff but we are all pretty much running with the same stuff. In simulation what I've come up with can take five direct hits with a 12.7mm, but only outside of 200 meters.

My instructors love it, but then again none of us have made anything they didn't love. Only sucks it's going to be another two years before it can actually be physically constructed because of specific bonding materials our body armors need. I am considering though in making a rough draft copy of it, but with a thicker chest-lining to allow inserts into a chest cavity to dimensionally fit the 30rd box magazine things that carry bullets for the common assault rifles, and a side slot to holster a pistol. Going to be working with a couple students from the Fashion Design and Merchandising Department in making the exterior look more aesthetically appealing. And possibly figure out where to install a light for the left or right shoulder, or a spot to mount in or pull out for maybe a first aid kit or something. But I'm also debating if I should incorporate a thermal controlled gel suspension so it will sit between the wearer and the vest itself to keep hot or cold. But the Fashion people I'm working with are going to take care of that part.

I do know, that when it's all finished and finally actually made, it's going to be badass. Ideas my classmates have also come up with are awesome too, I'm sure other colleges and universities are bringing their own ideas to the DoD too, it would be pretty cool if our final designs are picked or parts of them picked and made into the next issue of mil gear. But ultimately though, we all try to go as far away from dragon skin as we can.
 
Do you need some sort of clearance and NDA for your program?
To an extent, you have to be a US Citizen to get into any composites program, atleast that I'm aware of in my state you do. Depending on the emphasis track you choose to push your studies more towards, it veries on what kind of student you are, as well as the kind of career goals that you have in mind at a later time in your life. There is a lot of NDA in regards to specific quanities of materials, exact means of how they are laid out and put together, and so fourth. It's why if you didn't notice I talk about Boron Carbide with a broad brush, without getting into the specific variations of boron carbide, or specific forms of spinel ceramics.

I could choose to change gears in my studies and look towards vehicle armoring, or stealth armoring, or composites for use on commercial passenger aircraft, and so on. We all learn the core curriculum to manufacture, assemble, and produce composites of almost every nature except for those that require highly restricted materials such as uraniums (there are MANY types of Uranium despite public belief) and certain metals that would bore the crap out of you if you're not that fluent with metallurgy. (Metal and Ceramic materials make up the bulk of most composites next to different forms of resins and fiberglasses).

If you can suffer through the math and get through it, which is about 50% of the entire curriculum along with chemistry, so you know not to mix titanium without something like baking soda with certain types of reactive metals so you don't blow up your lab is one of those kind of reasons. The other 50% is dimensionally constructing your material on paper, then inputing information and data in several types of computer softwares, then if you get a go ahead we have specific materials requested for our projects issued to us. If it's a custom project (personal class project) than all material that is finished as the final product gets packaged, gets its tags, and sent off to the appropriate agency that has ownership of the materials. We then copy our data and paperwork, and send it separately to the same agency.

If it's commercial application like different materials for a fuel solage or materials to manufacture a stronger drill bit, and so on, those just get sent to specific points of contacts with the companies that donated the materials for our use. Red tape in composite programs only surface for material and data control, it's why you'll never see me post a photo of a ballistic plate I make, or sheet metals that survive dramatically massive temperatures.

Companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Raytheon, General Motors, Colt, Sikorsky, BNSF, and other major companies donate a great deal of money to keep programs like the one I'm in running, and Air Washington also gives funding as well as the DoD and DHS, hense the types of products and projects that we get and can do. We are just glad to be able to learn what we can and do what we are able to do. When I'm done with my pre-bachelor studies I'll be looking at a full-ride through my Bachellors (Dual Major, Electronics Engineering and debating between Mathematics or Mechanical Engineering). Most of the guys in my classrooms already have transfer agreements pre-set, and jobs after their bachelor degrees pre establish as well. For the guys who are stopping at their Associates in Technical Arts, already have pre-contracted, entry employment into Lockheed Martin and Boeing. Another classmate has a direct employment contract with General Dynamics for R&D.

But to answer your question in just a sentence (also wanted to clear up some questions you may of had in addition to) the way our classes are monitored and controlled, as long as everyone is a US citizen and not disclose technical composition data of materials such as thicknesses, number of layers, what's mixed with what, how it's mixed and put together, or disclose "how to" manufacture or produce the things we make outside the classroom or specific labs or outside of employments, we are pretty good to go.
 
x SF med don't take this the wrong way, but Dragon Skin was a farce, it never had any true merit. Weight was too great, the fact they used the types of resins they did, Dragon Skin was more of a novelty item, rather than a real solution. In its five minutes of fame years ago, it was interesting, but in practicality, it was no different than giving Somali's nylon shirts saying they've been blessed with voodoo before sending them against first world militaries.

...

Apparently, reading comprehension is not your forte - the person I was referring to hammered the hell out of Dragon Skin because he did not want any soldier to ever have the displeasure of being killed in it after all the scales were at the bottom of the plate carrier, and those that did not fall shattered and became secondary fragmentary projectiles. I trust what this guy says, he's a ballistics and armor guy, with a couple of master's in the fields, and years of first hand two way range experience...

May I offer a little advice to you... maybe instead of trying to impress everyone here, you could read a little more and get a feel for the tenor of this site, and learn about the people - kudos to your education, but some of us might have some practical experience that trumps a classroom and a lab... just sayin' , y'know... use a little common sense and less book smarts in dealing with the membership of this site, you might gain some allies instead of alienating people.
 
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Welcome, you sound smart.

You can make the most protective set of armor in the world but if it sucks balls to wear guys are going to shit all over it. Don't get too wrapped up in what design students tell you, 75% of them don't understand shit yet, it takes 6-7 years in the industry before they really start to get it and then some will never advance beyond trying to regurgitate a wooly hat.

If you get given data in regards to the user requirements for comfort/ergonomics/weight try and get the raw data, not the filtered and strained UR. A lot of the time it will have a heavy bias on it from the project manager and not all of them are stellar individuals. An example of this is a UR I have on my desk for a high end units pack that has feature omitted I know the users want because I worked with them before they became cool and maintain contact. These features were omitted by someone who does not perform the job of the users.

If you can watch the way the guys you are trying to build this stuff for work, once you see it first hand you will start to pick up on the little things it needs to be a winner.

Most of all good luck, I've helped a few of the design students at Canterbury here out with their final projects and it's really cool to see guys pushing the limit with their ideas and not being constrained by what the industry says is the norm.
 
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