Marines and the CIA in Vietnam

[A.J. Yokley]

My father was a corpsman during The Vietnam War. He served 4 tours there. I was going through my fathers records after he passed away last year and could not find any records of when he was actually in Vietnam. My father did not speak a whole lot about his time in Vietnam. However, he did say that he was with a Marine Corps unit that had a civilian that held the rank of Lt. Col. From what research I have found it could have possibly been a CIA unit. I requested information from the CIA about my father and they said that they could neither confirm or deny any records about my father being attached to the CIA. I am wanting to learn more about what my father did over there. Does anyone know of any books or material that might tell about the association between the Marines and the CIA in Vietnam?

 

[A.J. Yokley]

Sorry I meant to add that my fathers records showed he was award the Vietnam Service Medal and the Vietnam Campaign Medal with 3 stars

 

[Muppet]

@Ocoka .....

M.

 

[SpitfireV]

The initial records, were they in your father's estate or did you request them from the USMC? Maybe that could be an avenue. Good luck mate.

 

[A.J. Yokley]

Most of his records were from the Navy. I requested his records from the National Archives. However, I only received copies of his DD214 where he reenlisted. Dad had copies of his personnel file which contained a lot more information. In my dads duty assignment paperwork he was listed as being received as a patient at the Naval Hospital in San Diego. His medical records don't show him being treated during that time. My dad said he was wounded by a grenade blast while in Cambodia in 1971. He had some nasty scars on the back of his legs. He was never awarded a Purple Heart. When I requested the rest of his medical records from the National Archieves they only told me that no such records were available. So I am kinda confused as to what my dad really did. I served 4years in the Army and I am not really educated on how the special operations groups really work other than what I have read and seen on tv. Should the Marine Corps have a file on my Dad? My dad retired from the Navy as a Chief in 1990.

 

[SpitfireV]

I see now. My ignorance was that I thought he was a Marine, rather than attached to a Marine unit. I agree with Muppet, Oocka should be able to help you a lot more than I can. If you know the unit name at least you might be able to request the official unit history (if there is one).

 

[Devildoc]

Howdy. My father did three tours in VN, all in intel. One was (partially) with MACV/SOG. My father was in and out of non-military groups, but I believe his records have him attached to MACV and S2 3rd MARDIV for the duration of those times. If your dad was seconded or attached to CIA units, good luck in getting that. It likely will not be on a DD214, but he should have an duty station for those periods.

Please let us know how it turns out.

 

[A.J. Yokley]

Howdy. My father did three tours in VN, all in intel. One was (partially) with MACV/SOG. My father was in and out of non-military groups, but I believe his records have him attached to MACV and S2 3rd MARDIV for the duration of those times. If your dad was seconded or attached to CIA units, good luck in getting that. It likely will not be on a DD214, but he should have an duty station for those periods.

Please let us know how it turns out.

My dads records only show that he was awarded the medals. There is no record of his time in Vietnam only that he was awarded the medals. I have his duty rosters that had a list of all assignments. Dad was assigned to multiple schools and training. At one point he is in two places at one time. So it don't really match up. When he was wounded there is a hand written entry but there is no medical records from when he was a patient in San Diego. He was a patient for about 11 days according to the duty assignments. Dad did mention that some of the Marines he served with were either from the 3/4 or the 4/3 not sure what that is.

 

[Gunz]

@Ocoka .....

M.

My dads records only show that he was awarded the medals. There is no record of his time in Vietnam only that he was awarded the medals. I have his duty rosters that had a list of all assignments. Dad was assigned to multiple schools and training. At one point he is in two places at one time. So it don't really match up. When he was wounded there is a hand written entry but there is no medical records from when he was a patient in San Diego. He was a patient for about 11 days according to the duty assignments. Dad did mention that some of the Marines he served with were either from the 3/4 or the 4/3 not sure what that is.

PM sent.

MACV/SOG would be a good place to start. Many records of MACV/SOG and CIA activities during the Vietnam War have been declassified but may be redacted. You seem to be dealing with some serious information gaps and contradictions. The Marine Corps would not have your father's military records. They would be at the National Personnel Records Center if they existed. There is some slight chance that some of his papers were lost simply because everything back then was type-written and carbon-copied and had to be physically moved in storage boxes, but that's a long shot.

 

[Devildoc]

Another thought: Give Texas Tech a shout. They have a large (and growing) Vietnam collection and have a large repository of records and information. If they don't have information maybe they can at least get you pointed in the right direction.

The Vietnam Center and Archive, Texas Tech University

 

[Gunz]

Dad did mention that some of the Marines he served with were either from the 3/4 or the 4/3 not sure what that is.

3/4 = 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 3rd Marine Division (Hawaii)
4/3 = (There is no 4th Bn, so this must be:) 4th Marine Regiment, 3rd Marine Division (Okinawa)

The 4th Marines are an infantry regiment of 3 MARDIV.

But the 3rd Division wasn't in Vietnam in 1971. They had pulled out in 1969.

Also, are you sure your dad did 4 tours? That's 4 years in Vietnam and 1971 would most likely have been his last tour if all four tours were consecutive--which was extremely rare. He would've had to have been at least 18 or 19 in '66 or '67.

I dunno, man. I'm trying to make sense of it but can't.

 

[A.J. Yokley]

Ok I was looking through my dads paperwork again. He was 4th Marine Regiment 3rd Marine Division in Okinawa in 1978. My dads DD214 has the Vietnam Campaign Medal with 3 bronze stars. I think each star represents a campaign right? So my dad would have to been a part of 4 campaigns if this is correct. Dad enlisted in 1970 I know he said that he was in Vietnam in 1971 and 1975. Sorry about the confusion, I can't make sense of either.

 

[Gunz]

If he enlisted in 1970, he certainly wouldn't have done 4 year-long tours since our support ended in 1973. If he did go back in 1975, it would've been for a few days only during Operation Frequent Wind, the evacuation of at-risk Vietnamese--who had worked for the Americans--from Saigon as NVA armored units approached the capital.

But yes, he could've had 4 campaign stars on his Vietnamese Service Ribbon. These represent overall operational phases that were in existence while he was in-country and do not refer to specific unit combat operations...and more than one operational phase could be concurrent with other operational phases. In other words, it's a pretty broad definition and reflects only one's presence in-country during those designated operational phases.

This has to be considered. If your dad enlisted at 18 in 1970, he would've most likely been a young E3 in 1971 and that makes me a bit leery regarding possible attachment to MACV/SOG. Those dudes were heavy hitters, mostly Special Forces, SEALs and some Marine Recon team involvement, but no place for beginners. I also have doubts as to whether a young Corpsman would've been seconded to a CIA-led team running cross border operations into Cambodia. I could be wrong and I don't want to cast aspersions on your dads integrity. I think however there may have been some miscommunication between you and him.

We went into Laos in March '71 in Lam Son 719, but it was mostly a Vietnamese show with US helo and fixed-wing support...but there may have been some limited covert American incursion prior to kick-off.

 

[CDG]

Just to add onto what @Ocoka said, who is the SME, here's what a quick Google search turned up about the stars.

• Service star (campaign star): for participation in or support of operations in the seventeen designated campaigns of the Vietnam Conflict, a  3⁄16 inch bronze service star is authorized for wear on the Vietnam Service Medal suspension and service ribbon for each of the campaigns from 15 March 1962 to 28 January 1973; a  3⁄16 inch bronze star is also authorized for Operation Frequent Wind, 29-30 April 1975, for Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force personnel. A  3⁄16 inch silver star is authorized in lieu of five bronze stars.

 

[A.J. Yokley]

This just raises more questions as to my dads story. I agree with you Ocoka. You make perfect sense. I am just wondering why there is not notations about my dads service in Vietnam in any of his records? I guess I will never know. Thank you all for your information. I have definitely been educated!

 

[Devildoc]

You may never know; or, it may take a bit of digging. Keep digging. My dad, who died when I was 8, had a 21-year career that was in part redacted. He was gone a lot, in places he could not discuss, with people he could not talk about. But over the years I have been piecing his career together like a puzzle and now it's pretty complete.

Clearly it's meaningful, so don't give up.

 

[A.J. Yokley]

It seems that we definitely have something in common with our fathers. Thanks for the help