Surgeons killing themselves at an alarming rate. One decided to speak out

[Ooh-Rah]

This is a very long, but pretty interesting article about medicine, surgery residencies, and psychological issues.
I am posting only the link due to its length. It is worth the read.

US surgeons are killing themselves at an alarming rate. One decided to speak out

 

[Devildoc]

There's a lot to unpack here. Is it because physicians enter the profession with mental illness which predisposes them for suicide? Is it because the job itself adds such additional stressors that it predisposes someone, even without mental illness, for suicide? Is it because of the way they were raised, is it because they were not taught resiliency along the way, was it because of an extrinsic factor?

Good article. You can take this out for most medical professions.

 

[TLDR20]

I’m sorry for anyone who is depressed.

Disclaimer: Hot take coming in. Steaming hot “I am an asshole take” don’t read if you will be pissed.








Oh boohoo. I’m sorry but surgeons are probably the one group outside of pro athletes I have the least sympathy for. An alarming percentage of them are rich(either generationally or are now) narcissistic sociopaths who bully everyone in their path. They talk down to everyone and treat underlings like slaves. Luckily I have a drape between me and the massive egos they carry around most days.

71 suicides in a 14 year span? Not exactly an epidemic or “an alarming rate”.

I am more curious if the people drawn to surgery are borderline autistic sociopaths, or residency makes them that way. I think it is the former.

 

[Devildoc]

I’m sorry for anyone who is depressed.

Disclaimer: Hot take coming in. Steaming hot “I am an asshole take” don’t read if you will be pissed.








Oh boohoo. I’m sorry but surgeons are probably the one group outside of pro athletes I have the least sympathy for. An alarming percentage of them are rich(either generationally or are now) narcissistic sociopaths who bully everyone in their path. They talk down to everyone and treat underlings like slaves. Luckily I have a drape between me and the massive egos they carry around most days.

71 suicides in a 14 year span? Not exactly an epidemic or “an alarming rate”.

I am more curious if the people drawn to surgery are borderline autistic sociopaths, or residency makes them that way. I think it is the former.

Dude, I literally just spit whiskey out my nose reading this. Golf claps for you. Could not agree more.

 

[AWP]

An unending supply of drugs and impressionable, young nurses causes depression?

 

[Bluebird19]

I’m sorry for anyone who is depressed.

Disclaimer: Hot take coming in. Steaming hot “I am an asshole take” don’t read if you will be pissed.








Oh boohoo. I’m sorry but surgeons are probably the one group outside of pro athletes I have the least sympathy for. An alarming percentage of them are rich(either generationally or are now) narcissistic sociopaths who bully everyone in their path. They talk down to everyone and treat underlings like slaves. Luckily I have a drape between me and the massive egos they carry around most days.

71 suicides in a 14 year span? Not exactly an epidemic or “an alarming rate”.

I am more curious if the people drawn to surgery are borderline autistic sociopaths, or residency makes them that way. I think it is the former.

What percentage do you consider alarming? Also, what’s wrong with surgeons being rich?; IMO they deserve it for all the hard work they did in school and are doing in their job; of course, this is not an excuse for some of them being arrogant and treating others badly, but at least they can perform surgery lol.

Nonetheless, don’t be alarmed; there will be less surgeons as time passes by: “An April 2019 report prepared for the AAMC by the health care consulting firm IHS Markit Ltd., titled The Complexities of Physician Supply and Demand, estimates a shortage of 14,300 to 23,400 surgical specialists by 2032. And a 2016 Department of Health and Human Services workforce analysis projected shortages in nine out of 10 surgical specialties by 2025, with the greatest shortages in ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery, urology, and general surgery.”

 

[Bluebird19]

What percentage do you consider alarming? Also, what’s wrong with surgeons being rich?; IMO they deserve it for all the hard work they did in school and are doing in their job; of course, this is not an excuse for some of them being arrogant and treating others badly, but at least they can perform surgery lol.

Nonetheless, don’t be alarmed; there will be less surgeons as time passes by: “An April 2019 report prepared for the AAMC by the health care consulting firm IHS Markit Ltd., titled The Complexities of Physician Supply and Demand, estimates a shortage of 14,300 to 23,400 surgical specialists by 2032. And a 2016 Department of Health and Human Services workforce analysis projected shortages in nine out of 10 surgical specialties by 2025, with the greatest shortages in ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery, urology, and general surgery.”

source: https://www.aamc.org/news/desperate... prepared,23,400 surgical specialists by 2032.

 

[Devildoc]

What percentage do you consider alarming? Also, what’s wrong with surgeons being rich?; IMO they deserve it for all the hard work they did in school and are doing in their job; of course, this is not an excuse for some of them being arrogant and treating others badly, but at least they can perform surgery lol.

Nonetheless, don’t be alarmed; there will be less surgeons as time passes by: “An April 2019 report prepared for the AAMC by the health care consulting firm IHS Markit Ltd., titled The Complexities of Physician Supply and Demand, estimates a shortage of 14,300 to 23,400 surgical specialists by 2032. And a 2016 Department of Health and Human Services workforce analysis projected shortages in nine out of 10 surgical specialties by 2025, with the greatest shortages in ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery, urology, and general surgery.”

It's multimodal. Funding for GME positions (i.e., resident education) is generated largely by federal dollars. And that gets influenced by each "specialties" governing body. For instance, the board that oversees neurosurgeons will dictate how many neurosurgeons there will be. And that in turn informs GME on how many neurosurgery resident slots they will have which in turn is funded by federal dollars.

Also, reimbursement and payment will always be a big issue. Do they deserve the big bucks? Sure, I guess. But you're going to get those big bucks at a Cleveland Clinic or a Duke Hospital and not Podunk Regional community hospital. So the supply and demand thing is real, but just because there's a demand doesn't mean it's undermanned, it could be underfunded because of a variety of reasons.

As for the suicide rate, I don't want to see anyone suicide themselves. That said, surgeons are entering a community where they have been told their entire lives they are the best and suddenly they often small fish in a big sea, a great surgeon among many great surgeons, with an incredible work schedule and an inability to balance life/work. But 71 and 14 years ain't exactly an epidemic.

 

[TLDR20]

What percentage do you consider alarming? Also, what’s wrong with surgeons being rich?; IMO they deserve it for all the hard work they did in school and are doing in their job; of course, this is not an excuse for some of them being arrogant and treating others badly, but at least they can perform surgery lol.

Nonetheless, don’t be alarmed; there will be less surgeons as time passes by: “An April 2019 report prepared for the AAMC by the health care consulting firm IHS Markit Ltd., titled The Complexities of Physician Supply and Demand, estimates a shortage of 14,300 to 23,400 surgical specialists by 2032. And a 2016 Department of Health and Human Services workforce analysis projected shortages in nine out of 10 surgical specialties by 2025, with the greatest shortages in ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery, urology, and general surgery.”

I don’t care that they are rich. I just don’t like feeling sorry for some of the richest people who live a life that is constantly curated to keep them happy.

There isn’t a shortage of surgeons, there is an excess of patients.

I work with surgeons literally everyday. In the OR. I watch them winge and bitch about the smallest inconvenience. I listen to them brag about their vacations and bullshit while some 20 bucks an hour tech sits there while they run their mouths. I watch them run through 8 elective cases then get bitchy when they need some stupid add on after most of the OR staff has left and they try to murder sick people while I keep them alive. So yeah, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for many of them.

 

[TLDR20]

What percentage do you consider alarming? Also, what’s wrong with surgeons being rich?; IMO they deserve it for all the hard work they did in school and are doing in their job; of course, this is not an excuse for some of them being arrogant and treating others badly, but at least they can perform surgery lol.

Nonetheless, don’t be alarmed; there will be less surgeons as time passes by: “An April 2019 report prepared for the AAMC by the health care consulting firm IHS Markit Ltd., titled The Complexities of Physician Supply and Demand, estimates a shortage of 14,300 to 23,400 surgical specialists by 2032. And a 2016 Department of Health and Human Services workforce analysis projected shortages in nine out of 10 surgical specialties by 2025, with the greatest shortages in ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery, urology, and general surgery.”

The alarming point was a reference to the article.

 

[TLDR20]

It's multimodal. Funding for GME positions (i.e., resident education) is generated largely by federal dollars. And that gets influenced by each "specialties" governing body. For instance, the board that oversees neurosurgeons will dictate how many neurosurgeons there will be. And that in turn informs GME on how many neurosurgery resident slots they will have which in turn is funded by federal dollars.

Also, reimbursement and payment will always be a big issue. Do they deserve the big bucks? Sure, I guess. But you're going to get those big bucks at a Cleveland Clinic or a Duke Hospital and not Podunk Regional community hospital. So the supply and demand thing is real, but just because there's a demand doesn't mean it's undermanned, it could be underfunded because of a variety of reasons.

As for the suicide rate, I don't want to see anyone suicide themselves. That said, surgeons are entering a community where they have been told their entire lives they are the best and suddenly they often small fish in a big sea, a great surgeon among many great surgeons, with an incredible work schedule and an inability to balance life/work. But 71 and 14 years ain't exactly an epidemic.

Realistically surgeons make way less money at big centers than they do at smaller ones, specifically private surgery centers. Academics is not a good RVU center. There is a reason the turnover times are 45 mins at Duke and UNC and 10 mins at their ancillary centers.

Most big hospital docs are employed by the hospital, and while they make make a fair salary, they are not beholden to being douchecanoes to make their money.

 

[BlackSmokeRisinG]

What percentage do you consider alarming? Also, what’s wrong with surgeons being rich?; IMO they deserve it for all the hard work they did in school and are doing in their job; of course, this is not an excuse for some of them being arrogant and treating others badly, but at least they can perform surgery lol.

A starting salary of $450g and a mid career salary of $600-800 grand+ depending on specialty is a ton of money for anybody. At the end of the day they do a job. The 8 years of pre-med and med school before that is no different than for any other MD (and sometimes DO) who will also do a 3-6 year residency and make half. Also, robots and lasers do a lot of the actual surgery these days. And all that extra $$$ translates to higher insurance premiums and higher cost of healthcare.

Having a shit attitude after actualizing your dreams and bringing home all that cash is not a sign of dominance. It's a sign of insecurity.

 

[Devildoc]

Realistically surgeons make way less money at big centers than they do at smaller ones, specifically private surgery centers. Academics is not a good RVU center. There is a reason the turnover times are 45 mins at Duke and UNC and 10 mins at their ancillary centers.

Most big hospital docs are employed by the hospital, and while they make make a fair salary, they are not beholden to being douchecanoes to make their money.

Yes, this is largely true. I think there is some offset at academic medical centers: pay that comes with titles (adjunct faculty, associate professor, professor, etc), book deals, etc.

There are certain jobs they do at academic medical centers/tertiary care centers which they cannot do elsewhere, which for some I am sure is a draw. But for a lot of these folks they can do less work and make more money at a smaller hospital for sure.

 

[Bluebird19]

I don’t care that they are rich. I just don’t like feeling sorry for some of the richest people who live a life that is constantly curated to keep them happy.

There isn’t a shortage of surgeons, there is an excess of patients.

I work with surgeons literally everyday. In the OR. I watch them winge and bitch about the smallest inconvenience. I listen to them brag about their vacations and bullshit while some 20 bucks an hour tech sits there while they run their mouths. I watch them run through 8 elective cases then get bitchy when they need some stupid add on after most of the OR staff has left and they try to murder sick people while I keep them alive. So yeah, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for many of them.

Well, just because someone is rich financially doesn’t mean they are happy; sure, they can afford to do more things than the people with less money, which can lead to feelings of happiness, but only short term; if the person has poor mental, physical, and spiritual health (if they are religious) then IMO they are poor which leads to unhappiness. “To live happily is an inward power of the soul”- Marcus Aurelius

In the case of surgeons, they might have become surgeons because of family pressure, satisfying their ego, monetary motivation, etc. so it might seem that “they have a life that is constantly curated to keep them happy” but inside they might have the constant feeling of dislike or even hate of their career that makes them feel purposeless. How can someone be happy with feeling purposeless? Isn’t a big part of life trying to live out a purpose?

Next, there can’t be “excess of patients” if there is enough medical personnel to satisfy the demand (number of patients). Surgical specialties are currently facing a shortage and this shortage will grow as years go on. It is estimated that there will be a deficit of 15,800-30,200 surgeons by 2034. This scarcity is due to factors like cost of education and burnout.

Surgical Workforce.

Also, I think that less people are willing to invest 10+ years of studying to start a career.
Lastly, it’s unfortunate that the surgeons you work with behave that way, I would feel mad at them too if they treated people like that. There is nothing that can be done if they don’t want to change, but they might be going through something that leads them to treat people poorly (just because they’re going through something is not an excuse to treat people that way, but there is people that don’t know how to cope and therefore act out in different forms). If I was in that situation, I would talk to them and ask why they behave that way; they might change or not. I’ve learned that there is always a deeper reason to why people act like jerks.