A sad day for the soldier/seaman/airman on the ground.... (A-10/CAS Discussion)

[AWP]

Air Force: We're cutting the A-10's.
Army That's bullshit! We need CAS!
AF: Okay, we'll give you the airframes, support equip., and any crews who want to transfer.
Army: Outstanding! Now we need our manning authroization and budget increased....
Entire DoD: LOL!
AMARC in Arizona: We'll leave a light on for ya'!

 

[Kraut783]

Or give the CAS assets and everything needed to run them to the Army and Marines.

If only (sigh)

 

[DA SWO]

Air Force: We're cutting the A-10's.
Army That's bullshit! We need CAS!
AF: Okay, we'll give you the airframes, support equip., and any crews who want to transfer.
Army: Outstanding! Now we need our manning authroization and budget increased....
Entire DoD: LOL!
AMARC in Arizona: We'll leave a light on for ya'!

Except the AGE would stay with the AF.
I doubt you'd get a lot of transfers either, Blue to Green wasn't a good deal for most of the folks who became green.

Too bad the Army's Aviation Acquisition folks are so incompetent.

 

[CDG]

I don't see the Air Force ever turning over JTAC duties to the conventional Army, and the Army only uses Air Force JTACs because they have to. CAS isn't as easy as some people in the Army seem to think, and if the way the JFO program is run is any indication, attempted implementation of a JTAC program would be a shitshow and a half.

 

[Gunz]

Survivability Upgrades. Keep that thing flying for another 30 years. Some things just get better with age. Wine, C-130s, M2 Brownings, 1911s.

 

[x SF med]

the interesting thing about the A-10 is it's survivability... how much more armor and armament can you throw on that airframe?

eta.... and in the great scheme of the AF.... it's an inexpensive plane... amazing ROI on it and the C-130, dontcha thunk?

 

[AWP]

I think with each passing day I hate the F-35 just a little bit more...

 

[pardus]

the interesting thing about the A-10 is it's survivability... how much more armor and armament can you throw on that airframe?

I'll give you an example, the De Havilland Mosquito was designed to carry a 1000lb payload, it ended up carrying a 4000lb payload 1,500ml, thats Berlin and back. Which was IIRC the same payload the B-17 could carry to Berlin.

Incidentally, the Canberra bomber was the replacement of the Mosquito and was designed due to the requirement for a jet aircraft with the capability of a Mosquito. The Canberra was the first non-American designed aircraft, built in the USA for the USA since WWI IIRC, and it's still in service in the USA, Not bad for an aircraft that came into service in 1953!

 

[CDG]

I don't see the Air Force ever turning over JTAC duties to the conventional Army, and the Army only uses Air Force JTACs because they have to. CAS isn't as easy as some people in the Army seem to think, and if the way the JFO program is run is any indication, attempted implementation of a JTAC program would be a shitshow and a half.

I ran across a paper written in 2003 by (then) MAJ Robert G. Armfield at the Air University that had a perfect quote for what I was trying to say in this post.

"Asking a traditional ground force soldier to understand all the issues
surrounding coordinate based targeting, combat airspace management and airpower command
and control is the same as asking an airman to understand the specifics of mechanized maneuver
warfare. Warfare is complicated; effective airpower application is perhaps more so."

 

[x SF med]

I ran across a paper written in 2003 by (then) MAJ Robert G. Armfield at the Air University that had a perfect quote for what I was trying to say in this post.

"Asking a traditional ground force soldier to understand all the issues
surrounding coordinate based targeting, combat airspace management and airpower command
and control is the same as asking an airman to understand the specifics of mechanized maneuver
warfare. Warfare is complicated; effective airpower application is perhaps more so."

the ground soldier is on the receiving end of ill-placed airpower application in a CAS situation... I trust the pilot that smiles as I wave at him as he flies by in his chariot of death to send the other guy to his maker... but that's just me, I guess. I don't think CAS is from 5000-15000 ft above the battlespace. that ain't close.

 

[pardus]

I ran across a paper written in 2003 by (then) MAJ Robert G. Armfield at the Air University that had a perfect quote for what I was trying to say in this post.

"Asking a traditional ground force soldier to understand all the issues
surrounding coordinate based targeting, combat airspace management and airpower command
and control is the same as asking an airman to understand the specifics of mechanized maneuver
warfare. Warfare is complicated; effective airpower application is perhaps more so."

Rather patronizing. The Army has been performing CAS for sometime now.

the ground soldier is on the receiving end of ill-placed airpower application in a CAS situation... I trust the pilot that smiles as I wave at him as he flies by in his chariot of death to send the other guy to his maker... but that's just me, I guess. I don't think CAS is from 5000-15000 ft above the battlespace. that ain't close.

Exactly!

The AF has been trying to get rid of probably the best CAS asset we have, since before the Gulf War. So fuck'm, they should be made to hand over everything including the budget for them. Everyone would be happy then. :-/

 

[CDG]

Rather patronizing. The Army has been performing CAS for sometime now.

How is it patronizing?

 

[CDG]

the ground soldier is on the receiving end of ill-placed airpower application in a CAS situation... I trust the pilot that smiles as I wave at him as he flies by in his chariot of death to send the other guy to his maker... but that's just me, I guess. I don't think CAS is from 5000-15000 ft above the battlespace. that ain't close.

The term "close" has nothing to do with how high the aircraft is. Helos are great, but they aren't the answer for everything.

 

[pardus]

How is it patronizing?

I already addressed this in my previous post. I'll quote myself "The Army has been performing CAS for sometime now." The AF is coming across like a superior wanker with no justification.

 

[pardus]

The term "close" has nothing to do with how high the aircraft is. Helos are great, but they aren't the answer for everything.

OK, now you are showing your ignorance. WTF do you know about our position on being supported? We know helos aren't everything, we also know AF is fucking us out of one of the best assests available.

 

[CDG]

OK, now you are showing your ignorance. WTF do you know about our position on being supported? We know helos aren't everything, we also know AF is fucking us out of one of the best assests available.

So what is the Army's position on being supported?

 

[DA SWO]

OK, now you are showing your ignorance. WTF do you know about our position on being supported? We know helos aren't everything, we also know AF is fucking us out of one of the best assests available.

I would think his almost JTAC-ness would give him some creds.
have you been on the receiving end of CAS?

 

[Ranger Psych]

I dunno, he's been pretty high speed as a NG medic...

 

[pardus]

So what is the Army's position on being supported?

You tell me, you're the expert.

So let me ask you, do you think losing the A-10 is going to reduce the quality of CAS that the guys on the ground receive?

I would think his almost JTAC-ness would give him some creds.
have you been on the receiving end of CAS?

It certainly does. It doesn't make him the all knowing authority though. It makes him well versed in what the AF tells him is right.
No, so obviously I have no say in the matter, right?

I dunno, he's been pretty high speed as a NG medic...

Golf clap.

 

[AWP]

All of these years I thought one of a JTAC's responsibilities was to tell the Army (local commander) what the Air Force can provide, not what the Army needs.

In a sense, JDAM's are the worst thing to happen to CAS in perhaps ever. It has convinced HQAF that any platform can deliver effective CAS, so the days of guns and rockets are almost over. Nevermind that they are used extensively in a place like Afghanistan, the F-35 can do ALLLLLL of that and more.

The AF should shutter the AD A-10 squadrons and keep those airframes for the Guard and Reserves. You save some money and can use those ariframes to keep the A-10 around for years to come.