A sad day for the soldier/seaman/airman on the ground.... (A-10/CAS Discussion)

Then there's this lovely article. Long but with many compelling points. The last few lines sum it up.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/at-what-point-does-the-usafs-war-against-the-a-10-becom-1685239179

All this leads to the question: at what point does the USAF's bureaucratic total war against this proven national asset become not just foolhardy but subversive? The USAF has a track record lasting decades of thankfully failed attempts at killing the A-10. But this time, with the jet being called to hot spots around the world once again, the USAF's case for its retirement is even harder to make than it was two years ago. And now, with unofficial gag orders and doctored data coming into focus, along with the same old slew of hollow reasons and half-truthful arguments that attempt to validate their decision to retire the A-10, where does the realm of illogical decision making by the USAF end and one of outright sabotage begin? Have we already crossed that line?
Sadly, I think so.
Click to expand...
 
Great article. The USAF at large has really stuck its head in the sand when it comes to the A-10. By far the biggest problem is that so much of the USAF just doesn't get it. They don't understand CAS, don't want to understand CAS, and treat those that do understand it as neanderthals incapable of seeing the "bigger picture".
 
CDG said:
By far the biggest problem is that so much of the USAF just doesn't get it. They don't understand CAS, don't want to understand CAS, and treat those that do understand it as neanderthals incapable of seeing the "bigger picture".
Click to expand...

I've lost track of the gun run footage I've seen against moving vehicles. We also lost a Strike Eagle crew practicing high angle strafing...so the brass may not understand, but there are a number of pilots and dead guys guys who "get it." Sadly, neither group will rise to decision-making positions. The JDAM answers the fighter pilot mafia's most urgent prayer: please make CAS easier so I can focus on shooting down planes and "real pilot" stuff.
 
Freefalling said:
I've lost track of the gun run footage I've seen against moving vehicles. We also lost a Strike Eagle crew practicing high angle strafing...so the brass may not understand, but there are a number of pilots and dead guys guys who "get it." Sadly, neither group will rise to decision-making positions. The JDAM answers the fighter pilot mafia's most urgent prayer: please make CAS easier so I can focus on shooting down planes and "real pilot" stuff.
Click to expand...

The pilots that do get it, and want it to rise on the priority list, will always be looked at a bit askance by the "real" pilots who only care about taking pictures of MiGs while inverted. Top officials making statements about the B-1 being able to handle the CAS workload if the A-10 retires shows an incredible level of ignorance to CAS. Then when people point out the other side of the coin, it's because they don't understand the future challenges, don't understand budgets, don't understand the threat, etc., etc. When you have the Vice Commander of ACC compare advocating for the A-10 to treason to a class of officers..... well.

I HATE the JDAM argument. "Y u need CAS? I can haz JDAMS!!". Goddammit. JDAMs have their place, but I'm so tired of hearing people talk about them as the be all end all of future CAS. 1150 rounds of 30mm is far more valuable, in far more situations, than a couple of 38s is. The FA article hit the nail on the head when it talked about "tech for the sake of tech".
 
I am just posting this comment from CSAF as a way to show how they are trying to misdirect people.

Critics of the Air Force's plan to retire the A-10, who say the F-35 is simply not an adequate platform for the close air support mission, are ignoring the Marine Corps' huge endorsement of it, Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh said Friday. At a press conference during AFA's Air Warfare Symposium in Orlando, Welsh said "it's an interesting conversation where everyone's talking about the F-35 not doing close air support when that's all the Marine Corp is buying it for," Welsh said. "This thread of conversation" that USAF doesn't care about the CAS mission "has really become a little ridiculous," he said. "I've got 140,000 data points over the last seven years that prove that's a ridiculous statement," Welsh added, offering the statistics on how many CAS sorties the service has flown during the period. "That's about 20,000 a year. When is there a little bit of credit given for that?" He said his father "thought he flew" CAS in P-40s, P-47s, P-51s, and F-84s, and his father's friends thought they did so in A-1s and A-7s, "long before we had an A-10." They believed they had a "mentality, a culture, and a focus" of giving ground support full attention, Welsh argued. "So why people, all of a sudden, looking backward, (are) saying they didn't is a little beyond my comprehension," he added.

let's ignore the fact that the Marines will have STO/VL version, and I assume (maybe wrong) that will allow a slower airspeed when required.
I can be CAS centric all day long, zipping by at 500 kts is different than zipping by at 250 kts.
5-10 sec of strafe capability does allow for a lot of runs on a target.
 
It's a red herring argument and nothing more. The fact you allocate sorties for CAS does not prove you care about from a service-wide perspective. The USMC may want it to replace the AV-8, as that aircraft has the highest rates of CIVCAS, but I highly doubt they would argue it's a capable replacement for A-10s. His argument about P-40s through A-7s is ridiculous and has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Mentality, focus, and culture is what the A-10 community has. They also have the right tool to express that mentality, focus, and culture. The F-35 community will NOT be focused on CAS, and they don't have the right tool for the job if they were anyways.
 
http://www.military.com/daily-news/...ial-until-2022.html?comp=7000023317828&rank=1

It continues. The ignorance to CAS is staggering here. Exactly how is the SDB II the "military's top CAS bomb"? The fact that it can be launched from 40nm out is wholly irrelevant to CAS. First off, even in a BOC, I don't know any JTACs that would feel comfortable with a bomb being pickled from that far out with the intention of landing IVO friendlies. That aside, the airspace deconfliction for that would be a nightmare on top of a nightmare. It ain't like it's a HIMARS or GMLRS round with a MAXORD, ORD X, GTL, and TOF. You'll probably get a time of fall, but other than that no one knows where the fuck that munition is going in the airspace. In addition to these issues, exactly what is the SDB II going to have effects against? Unarmored vehicles and personnel in the open are about it. So what, we're only developing COIN munitions now? It'll be real fun to go up against a Russian Armor BN with SDB IIs as opposed to 30mm DU rounds. Thanks, USAF. Top notch work here.
 
I'd e willing to bet the "40 nm" capability is mainly for a linear battlefield. That would, in theory, give us the ability to strike ground troops without exposing the aircrew to SHORAD. You still run into major airspace deconfliction issues, but I can't imagine any JTAC or GFC signing off on this munition being used at max range. It does reiterate the sad fact I've pointed out before which is "CAS" is all about PGM's and in this case the SDB II will run about 200k+ per round. One bomb will cost more than many homes in the US. I'm sure that's cheaper than a 30mm gun run. :rolleyes:
 
Part of the issue is the introduction of precision guided munitions (GPS, laser, radar) has allowed transformation of bombers into being considered as providing a legitimate CAS capability. Unfortunately there are many politician and top Air Force leaders who also don't understand the differences between CAS and close air support strikes (air support substituted for artillery). Also fear of political repercussions has changed air interdiction into a rule of engagement quagmire where positive target confirmation of a specific human target rather than a tank, bridge, train is engaged by air to ground precision weapon rather than strafing and dive bombing is most desired.

The avoid political risk driving tactics be using precision guided air to ground is contributing to the A-10 demise as much as it is also contributing in the use of snipers to target specific threat rather than establishing a free fire zone where all whether in uniform or not is considered an armed enemy combatant. The UAV and long range precision guided tactical missile and cruise missile is the unconventional warfare weapon of choice for keeping the politician safe from negative public opinions and fears of massive use of boots on the ground since the 1990s.

There is actually a 1960s Star Trek TV episode where war is waged by computer simulation where the unlucky civilians are required to report to humanitarian operated death chambers.

A Taste of Armageddon
The Enterprise arrives at a planet to establish diplomatic relations and finds itself in the middle of a "peaceful" war that threatens to destroy the ship.
 
I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle about what an "aviation journalist" says about CAS or anything else for that matter. They're mostly wrong, and that particular ding dong seems to be repeating what another ding dong said on jalopnick; a site originally started to talk about cars. The SDB2 isn't operational yet, so clearly he's missing something. That said, I wouldn't ping about max ranges, it's a max, the AC-130W drops sdb from much shorter range. The crazy ass, no one knows where the hell the weapon is going problem is also a thing of the past from what the AFSOC dudes have told me.

The A-10 issue is so emotional it's almost difficult to have a reasoned discussion. The ideal solution would be to have optimized platforms for every mission, that are survivable in any threat environment. Good luck making that happen.

I would love for the A-10 to stick around forever, but it's not reasonable. The biggest issue in my opinion is making sure the pink body in the cockpit is correctly trained to accomplish the mission. If the correctly trained body is in a platform optimized for the mission, even better. But the number one priority is people.
 
busdriver said:
I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle about what an "aviation journalist" says about CAS or anything else for that matter. They're mostly wrong, and that particular ding dong seems to be repeating what another ding dong said on jalopnick; a site originally started to talk about cars. The SDB2 isn't operational yet, so clearly he's missing something. That said, I wouldn't ping about max ranges, it's a max, the AC-130W drops sdb from much shorter range. The crazy ass, no one knows where the hell the weapon is going problem is also a thing of the past from what the AFSOC dudes have told me.

The A-10 issue is so emotional it's almost difficult to have a reasoned discussion. The ideal solution would be to have optimized platforms for every mission, that are survivable in any threat environment. Good luck making that happen.

I would love for the A-10 to stick around forever, but it's not reasonable. The biggest issue in my opinion is making sure the pink body in the cockpit is correctly trained to accomplish the mission. If the correctly trained body is in a platform optimized for the mission, even better. But the number one priority is people.
Click to expand...


It's obvious you've never been the one calling in CAS at Danger Close...Ground guys get very emotional about support in the right place, at the right time, hitting the right target and having it repeatable in reasonable amounts of time. An A-10 pinpointing your exact target and coming back immediately to get the next, with visual confirmation, clear communication (including using VS-17s if needed), and a nearly indestructible airframe is like having Michael the Archangel come down and deliver you from all evil... Whereas, Joe Cool in his electronically airconditioned smartbomb dropping 40miles out and at angels 11 is at best guessing even if the bomb has 47 PhDs.

The bodies on the ground are more important that the next big fucking expensive airframe or bomb... update the A-10 as a dedicated CAS platform, and let the JSF be the panacea for all other air combat missions. There is no onesize fits all... vonRichtoven and Rickenbacker and Daly drove those points home in the creations of their repective Air Forces... Screw sexy and highest speed now and outdated when it finally gets built. Why spend 10+x the initial cost of an A-10 on a platform that is unproven, doesn't even have the bombs the command says it's going to use, and needs software that is 5 iterations and 5 years away to make the non-existent bombs work... without being able to see your target.

I guess being astonished by fiscal waste is emotional... how many hundreds of billlions dollars are we into the JSF program? What do we have to show for it at the moment? How long has this been in the works? And we're supposed to have a flyable/fully capable of all air mission aircraft in 4 years... when the entire JSF fleet is grounded the first time due to a software bug or overheating microchip, what is going to cover those missions that plane has replaced?
 
busdriver said:
I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle about what an "aviation journalist" says about CAS or anything else for that matter. They're mostly wrong, and that particular ding dong seems to be repeating what another ding dong said on jalopnick; a site originally started to talk about cars. The SDB2 isn't operational yet, so clearly he's missing something. That said, I wouldn't ping about max ranges, it's a max, the AC-130W drops sdb from much shorter range. The crazy ass, no one knows where the hell the weapon is going problem is also a thing of the past from what the AFSOC dudes have told me.

The A-10 issue is so emotional it's almost difficult to have a reasoned discussion. The ideal solution would be to have optimized platforms for every mission, that are survivable in any threat environment. Good luck making that happen.

I would love for the A-10 to stick around forever, but it's not reasonable. The biggest issue in my opinion is making sure the pink body in the cockpit is correctly trained to accomplish the mission. If the correctly trained body is in a platform optimized for the mission, even better. But the number one priority is people.
Click to expand...

The problem is that these sentiments are not limited to aviation journalists. Top generals have expressed similar thoughts.

Whether the SDB2 is operational currently is irrelevant. The overarching problem is the attitude that continuously providing new versions of PGMs is the answer to CAS.

The A-10 is an emotional issue because it literally is life and death for the dudes on the ground. I take my mission to support those dudes very seriously, and they have every right to expect me to bring the right tools to the job. Can I actually control what aircraft the USAF keeps/doesn't keep? Of course not. But if the USAF leadership is sending the message that they prefer technology over the actual best tool for the job, then that stigma carries over everywhere else.

The people as priority line is exactly the point! If people really were the priority, the A-10 would get the upgrades it needs and would keep flying. Far more lives are at risk by retiring it then by keeping it and attempting to replace it with an alphabet soup of other platforms. The training of the pilot makes no difference at all when he has 180 rounds of gun and 1 or 2 bombs available as he's zipping along at 500 kas vs. the loadout the A-10 brings to the fight as it loiters IVO the battelfield and builds SA.
 

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