Probably right, Doc. I doubt we'll ever do another division-sized frontal amphibious assault or a massed helo vertical envelopment or take a hill with frags and bayonets. Too bad, we were so good at it.
Boots on the ground: calling for dominant infantry
- Thread starter Devildoc
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Probably right, Doc. I doubt we'll ever do another division-sized frontal amphibious assault or a massed helo vertical envelopment or take a hill with frags and bayonets. Too bad, we were so good at it.
Devildoc
Verified Military
Probably right, Doc. I doubt we'll ever do another division-sized frontal amphibious assault or a massed helo vertical envelopment or take a hill with frags and bayonets. Too bad, we were so good at it.
I understand the frustration, and saw a junior Marine once yell out "I just wanna kill the fuck out of someone." He was a grunt. It was he was trained to do. It is a very serious predicament...telling infantry to go do nuance and COIN, but not give them any substantive training.
I've been to more than a couple Combined Arms Exercises (CAX) in 29 Palms. I saw a little bit of urban warfare added to the exercise when it was renamed Mohave Viper, then a lot more when it became Enhanced Mohave Viper (EMV). Now Integrated Training Exercise (ITX) is evenly divided between conventional warfare and counter-insurgency operations. Most units should also include COIN training in their progressive training plans. I know that every infantry unit I served in during the GWOT did.
pardus
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Totally disagree. Any halfwit monkey can climb out of a trench and charge a MG. You are in essence saying that US Infantry are too stupid to conduct COIN operations. COIN is and has been a vital Infantry role since at least the end of WWII. All units and personnel need is training on how to conduct themselves in a COIN operation. Just as you train to operate in a jungle/urban/desert/arctic environment, or offensive/defensive/recon role.
You think recon/LRS/snipers aren't surgical? Come on mate.
The Brit Infantry did quite well in Northern Ireland on a COIN operation and managed to send those same Infanteers to the Falklands to sort out a numerically superior force with conventional tactics.
Don't sell the US Infantryman short. They just need to be trained properly.
Just like this!
Infantry must be adaptive/flexible as their role/situation in both war and civil missions are extremely varied. Train, adapt, overcome, Onward!
Totally disagree. Any halfwit monkey can climb out of a trench and charge a MG. You are in essence saying that US Infantry are too stupid to conduct COIN operations. COIN is and has been a vital Infantry role since at least the end of WWII. All units and personnel need is training on how to conduct themselves in a COIN operation. Just as you train to operate in a jungle/urban/desert/arctic environment, or offensive/defensive/recon role.
You think recon/LRS/snipers aren't surgical? Come on mate.
The Brit Infantry did quite well in Northern Ireland on a COIN operation and managed to send those same Infanteers to the Falklands to sort out a numerically superior force with conventional tactics.
Don't sell the US Infantryman short. They just need to be trained properly.
Just like this!
Infantry must be adaptive/flexible as their role/situation in both war and civil missions are extremely varied. Train, adapt, overcome, Onward!
I'm not saying Infantry cannot be flexible or that they cannot operate in a COIN battle space. What I am saying however, is that COIN is not the job for a 18 year old kid, who doesn't give two fucks for cultural norms, traditions and customs. That kid teaching all the younger LN kids to say cuss words and be disrespectfu, etc. Infantry is a young man's game, it's not those late 20's early 30's types who matured a bit and who can grasp a big picture. When I was 21-22, I sure as fuck didn't care. Just wanted to fuck shit up, joke and make the best out of a bullshit situation.
As for Sniper teams and LRS, yeah they can be surgical, and are specifically trained and lead by senior leaders. You are not taking a squad of 18-19 year old PFC's fresh our of Sand Hill on a recon or assault that has strategic implementation. That is why Rangers have special training and incredible dicipline. If the average squad of Airplane gang fire pissers could do it, right, with the desired outcome, you wouldn't need Rangers or SOF.
I love the Infantry, best time of my life. But the reality is, you can't have a single tool works for all job's. The Infantry needs to be that sledgehammer, and SOF needs to be that scalpel. They may overlap in some areas, but they don't need to do each other's jobs.
I think the Falkland and Ireland operation are poor examples, when talking about the future operational environment being discussed. Falkland was a classic operations, assualt, seize, hold. Ireland was more of a police action/operation vs the COIN operations the likes seen in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure you will disagree and throw out massive examples of how awesome COIN can be done by the average grunts, with super-duper training and special this and that. My point of disagreement is the current results of the last 15 years American grunts have been doing it and failing.
My $.02, expand SOF to meet the future needs, and reserve Infantry for that sledgehammer-break shit-kill everything role.
Totally disagree. Any halfwit monkey can climb out of a trench and charge a MG. You are in essence saying that US Infantry are too stupid to conduct COIN operations. COIN is and has been a vital Infantry role since at least the end of WWII. All units and personnel need is training on how to conduct themselves in a COIN operation. Just as you train to operate in a jungle/urban/desert/arctic environment, or offensive/defensive/recon role.
You think recon/LRS/snipers aren't surgical? Come on mate.
The Brit Infantry did quite well in Northern Ireland on a COIN operation and managed to send those same Infanteers to the Falklands to sort out a numerically superior force with conventional tactics.
Don't sell the US Infantryman short. They just need to be trained properly.
Just like this!
Infantry must be adaptive/flexible as their role/situation in both war and civil missions are extremely varied. Train, adapt, overcome, Onward!
I may have contradicted myself several times on this thread but COIN/FID was exactly the mission of my unit--the 2nd Combined Action Group--in Vietnam. And we were all 0311s, 0331s etc and all volunteers. You needed good rifle range and GCT scores and you got COIN and Vietnamese language/culture induc at CAP School. History says we did pretty well. So @pardus is correct, although @Diamondback 2/2 makes some valid points:
COIN/FID on the part of 18 and 19 year-old Soldiers and Marines can work with the proper indoctrination, leadership in the field and backing up the chain. But patience is one of the keys to working with foreign counterparts, especially those from vastly different economic and cultural backgrounds. And not all young teenage American warriors have the maturity and patience to deal with it in spite of their training. Small disagreements, perceived slights, joking around at somebody's expense can grow, over time, into dangerous resentments and mistrust. With ARVN--and I believe also with the ANA and some Iraqi militias--there were even suspicions, or actual incidents, of individuals colluding with the enemy.
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I've watched PFC's and Spec 4's train/ mentor Afghans. Here's the thing, this "economy of force." We have x amount of SOF guys and y amount of Infantry types. Policy makers won't care about the felt on a guy's head, they see bodies. If they allocate some number of guys to a battlespace, they won't care if they are SF, Infantry, or mechanics (not the Jason Statham type), they will expect for peace and freedom to break out on command. You'll find more 11x/ 03xx on the battlefield than any other MOS because, and I hate to break this to some of you, our ground forces exist for those 11 series and 03 series to place a 19 YO with a machine gun on some geographic point.
We can argue about ideals and whatnot, but the reality is we've dumped O-5 and higher level responsibilities in an O-3's lap a gazillion times over in the last 15 years. Do we think that won't happen again? "Reaganomics at the bullet level" is our COIN strategy and nothing's changing. Might as well get used to teaching our E-3's how to work with others.
We can argue about ideals and whatnot, but the reality is we've dumped O-5 and higher level responsibilities in an O-3's lap a gazillion times over in the last 15 years. Do we think that won't happen again? "Reaganomics at the bullet level" is our COIN strategy and nothing's changing. Might as well get used to teaching our E-3's how to work with others.
Devildoc
Verified Military
Last time I was at CAX was....2000? It might have been 99. I don't recall if there was training. I don't remember what I had for breakfast this morning; there may have been (training), I just don't remember. Given the 'strategic corporal' and 3-block war concept and the Marines' ownership in this, I am glad to see it has expanded like it has.
Just to add to the context of my post, offering clarity and honesty. I am not a fan of the Untied States doctrine on COIN, and I am fully against how COIN has been conducted post 9/11 in Iraq and Afghanistan. If our grunts were specifically selected and trained to carry out COIN ops under the current and past strategies and methods, it wouldn't change much IMHO.
That all said, I don't really have a dog in this fight anymore and I've had some heated debates on this subject in the past. So in an effort to not kick that dead horse again, or take this thread down an over traveled path. I will bow out of the discussion, and concede my views and opinions.... <~~~~that's fancy smancy talk for "fuck it, you win, I got better shit to think about":-":wall:
That all said, I don't really have a dog in this fight anymore and I've had some heated debates on this subject in the past. So in an effort to not kick that dead horse again, or take this thread down an over traveled path. I will bow out of the discussion, and concede my views and opinions.... <~~~~that's fancy smancy talk for "fuck it, you win, I got better shit to think about":-":wall:
I'm quoting this because I'm quoting this.
I didn't realize you got out before the GWOT. The Marine Corps did not have any COIN training at CAX. The service ramped up COIN training significantly in 2004. The Marine Corps hired Arabic speaking role players, ran Arabic language training and other training events. They even set up a training facility with a Hollywood producer to run infantry squads through a simulated Iraqi village with role players and special effects.
Devildoc
Verified Military
I was a corpsman through Dec 2003, then got my commission. I had not been to CAX in a few years at that point.
I know Krulak had dropped hints about COIN several years prior and the writing was on the walls that the Corps was headed in that direction, and I am glad that it's being implemented. When I left the 'green side' after I got my commission in 2003, GWOT was still newish, and a lot of the junior Marines were still very much "blood makes the grass grow."
ETA, I was in reserves at that point as well. We weren't low-hanging fruit like our AD counterparts, and all "non-essential" ATs and ADSW orders were canceled/denied.
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