Does anyone work for an agency or aware of an agency that has an existing policy regarding use of IR lasers?
Thanks
Thanks
Dept policies covering IR Lasers?
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What seems to be the issue?
No issues other than I don't know that anyone has such a policy. I expect at some point someone will adopt one if for no other reason than the eye safety issue. Many of the guys I see running these are running the IR laser on high output under the theory that more is better, but teams should have at least some SOP for zeroing and a qualification course.
Do these guys know that IR can drill a hole in your eye just like visible?
Sadly I think many do not, or at least they do not fully grasp the seriousness of it. Also I try to demonstrate to them the sparkle affect on a suspect and how it makes it impossible to see what is in their hands. Quite honestly (and I've been telling Insight this for years) all L.E. users need is an eye safe version..... rumor has it that Insight is actually going to make some eye safe version of the PEQ-15.
Can tell you that in Illinois I have never heard of a G.O. on this.
We usally don't create a unit order unless someone fucks up. So right now, it's a non issue for our guys. Technically we could bring them up for failure to follow orders given by a supervisor (which is the catch all). But then again, I'm fortunate that I have two other SF guys on my SWAT Unit who help me out with training and I'm waiting for two other SF guys to get off probation so that they can try out for our full time SWAT Unit.
You are lucky to have that kind of knowledge on you team. I work with teams throughout AZ, NM, UT & CO, most of which are very good teams but don't possess that kind of experience. SF types are few and far between and multiples are like a unicorn.
I think most agencies wait until a fuck up to institute new policies...unfortunately just as often, administrators are likely to respond by pulling the equipment out of use.
I count myself lucky with the experience and background of my SF guys. 4 of the 5 guys in my agency are on my ODA. I got a few more testing and when it's all said and done, our SWAT Unit will be a HALO Team mafia!!!!!
Even with all the rifles and pew pew toys and boom toys etc... LE is about apprehension and putting the douches behind bars, unless it's a situation where it's legally (and morally) obligated to issue out taxpayer funded lead via high speed delivery.
Civilian law enforcement as a general rule isn't making 300m+ shots (minus their sharpshooters) and that's where the high power shines. You have the glare at close range which endangers you as a team due to reducing your overall SA, you have the danger inherent both to bystanders, LE, and the perps you are intended to apprehend.
Talking points I would bring up:
A) Threat of Litigation: Think about the lawsuit if someone surrenders peacefully and ends up having been blinded by a department's IR lasers. It's a liability if it's not kept on eyesafe level. Even with the illuminators on PEQ2's, SWAT has the ability (and usual time) to be able to set up a full IR flood system off vehicles, which will provide better SA overall than just using weapon mounted systems.
B) Safety of the public, and the teams: This shit can BLIND YOU. There's no fixing that. It's not like a ND on a rifle where if it doesn't kill you, you'll heal up and go about your business. This falls under A as well, since if you accidentally blind a member of the public? yeah, bad juju.
C) Loss of SA due to the lasers. Lasers are for making a shot. The glare especially at 100-50 yards on a target can prevent you from being able to effectively identify if they have a weapon/are a threat... but you don't have that issue with them on low.
If you need to, do a "fam section" with dummies at range... put an E-type "wearing" a regular white tshirt and blue jeans, and one near it that's wearing a navy hoodie and say navy BDU pants... on high, you'll have a bit of an issue even identifying the navy hoodie target if you've got the laser on the obvious white tshirt target. Go over the prevalence of NVG's within the US and the fact that you identify your location with them. Hence why using IR floods is a great idea, they'll wash out and on some models with protection systems, flat out turn NVG's looking AT "the good guys" OFF.
Civilian law enforcement as a general rule isn't making 300m+ shots (minus their sharpshooters) and that's where the high power shines. You have the glare at close range which endangers you as a team due to reducing your overall SA, you have the danger inherent both to bystanders, LE, and the perps you are intended to apprehend.
Talking points I would bring up:
A) Threat of Litigation: Think about the lawsuit if someone surrenders peacefully and ends up having been blinded by a department's IR lasers. It's a liability if it's not kept on eyesafe level. Even with the illuminators on PEQ2's, SWAT has the ability (and usual time) to be able to set up a full IR flood system off vehicles, which will provide better SA overall than just using weapon mounted systems.
B) Safety of the public, and the teams: This shit can BLIND YOU. There's no fixing that. It's not like a ND on a rifle where if it doesn't kill you, you'll heal up and go about your business. This falls under A as well, since if you accidentally blind a member of the public? yeah, bad juju.
C) Loss of SA due to the lasers. Lasers are for making a shot. The glare especially at 100-50 yards on a target can prevent you from being able to effectively identify if they have a weapon/are a threat... but you don't have that issue with them on low.
If you need to, do a "fam section" with dummies at range... put an E-type "wearing" a regular white tshirt and blue jeans, and one near it that's wearing a navy hoodie and say navy BDU pants... on high, you'll have a bit of an issue even identifying the navy hoodie target if you've got the laser on the obvious white tshirt target. Go over the prevalence of NVG's within the US and the fact that you identify your location with them. Hence why using IR floods is a great idea, they'll wash out and on some models with protection systems, flat out turn NVG's looking AT "the good guys" OFF.
BillyC1636
Verified SWAT
We do not have a policy and our sister agency/team does not have a policy on IR lasers. I have told our entry guys to keep the block in the PEQ-15s to prevent them from going to a high setting. An L3 rep has told me they offer free 8 hour SAFETY Training on the PEQ-15s. I can pass his information to you via PM if you'd like.
Thanks Billy, I have all of the safety info...I was just hoping to find an agency that had a standing policy that I could steal.
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