.Fix Recon

[Cayenne6]

Hitman


Way back when we weren't operators, vetted, or go on missions. We were team members, some Recon trained and some not, who went on patrols. Not trying to piss you off or make fun of the now-a-day terminology. I have the greatest respect for your generation. Just an example of change.
Have no idea how I missed your explanation post. Guess I have to chalk it up to posting while on my first cup of "get me started". Having absolutely no knowledge of the school I have to take a back seat to those who know. At best I'm a product of my environment which is so far in the past it feels like the stone age of Recon. I can see both sides of the coin. The need to keep the qualifications strict to weed out the inferior stacked up against inexperience coming into a Recon unit because numbers have to be met. I see what it takes today to be Recon and wonder if I could toe the mark.
When the Bn. hit Nam in 66 it was filled with nothing but highly trained Reconners. By Sept. 70 it was down to mostly warm bodies and ability to fire a 16. C, D, E, & 1st Force pulled out leaving us drastically undermanned. As guys who were left rotated out of country there were very few Reconners transferring in. Replacements mostly came from volunteers from the grunts. When we couldn't get them a rep from the Bn. would go to Freedom Hill and set in the movie theater until after the movie started. He'd get the movie stopped, introduce himself, then wait for the mass exodus. He would talk to the few who were left and end up with a couple volunteers. Getting non-Reconners would seem like a recipe for disaster or at the very least the performance of the Bn. would take a big hit but neither happened. What we did just naturally weeded out those who couldn't take the pressure. Surprisingly there were very few who got shitcanned or left of their own choosing. Out of that crowd came some damn good men who ended up great team leaders. Reconners and guys like me who were made Recon by the experience that took jungle fighting to a new level.
It's not the one who runs the fastest, masters all the physical aspects, or possesses the best Recon knowledge. It's the dude with the mental aspect who can not be stopped who carries the day. I can only fall back on my experience. Circumstances not want to put me in Recon. Only reason I volunteered for Recon was I was stupidly hoping the war would be over before the school was out and I wouldn't have to go to Nam. Not bootcamp, training, or 3 months with the grunts changed me from being Jody back on the block. I didn't even willingly transfer to 1st Recon. I was given the choice between the DaNang brig and 1st Recon. I didn't get the want to until the last few days of that faunky 2 week RIP school at the Bn. Had something happen one hot afternoon that changed me so much that the piece of shit I was died completely and who I became was born. Even at that I fought the system. I had been pushed off the porch into a pack of big dogs then in just a few months pushed to the front. Once there I have never looked back. I became something that to me is more important than anything I will ever do in my life, a Recon team leader. I was privileged to lead better men than myself into combat while managing to have been undoubtedly the worst team leader in the Bn. by Recon standards.
Guess this is my long winded way of saying that even though that school isn't what a combat hardened Reconner thinks it should be the guys who attend that school at least have the want to that will get them started. The school will teach them the basics and when they go through the next phases the weak will be weeded out. If not the Bn. will take care of most of them. There are always a few who slip through.
I am not disagreeing with you in any way. Just presenting the other side of the coin. Only time will tell how Recon will be affected. Just as the bootcamp you went through wasn't the bootcamp I went through and the bootcamp I went through wasn't the bootcamp of the 30's and 40's it's the finished product that matters. I have been privileged and honored to walk among men who stormed the beaches in the Pacific, have had lengthy visits with those who fought the bitter cold of Korea, walked and fought in the rice paddies of Nam with the grunts, booked and fought on high speed trails with Nam Reconners, and mingled with your generation. I see no difference in any of the groups despite the difference in training.

The 6
A one time 10 pecenter

 

[Cayenne6]

I guess the ropers (or whatever they're called now) don't have to run everywhere they go now.
It starts with the small things.

For years I heard how soft the Corps was getting. Bootcamp had become a cake walk. No more getting hit upside the head with either end of a rifle, being stuffed in a footlocker while a DI beats on the locker with a rifle butt, or having a DI jump up and down on your chest while you are flat on your back. Guess it started with the small things like those being removed from the training.
In being a smart ass I'm just trying to show an attitude that has been around since the Corps began. Each generation is judged by the previous as not being as good. Reality is each generation grabs the baton of the previous generation and runs just as fast and sure despite the inferior training.
All I'm trying to say is hold off judgment until you see what your next generation does. Bet a buck it will be just as badass as you guys.

6

 

[Cayenne6]

I was with Kocher at 2nd in 2006, reason I asked. Good guy. QUOTE]

Masonea

Kocher is a good dude. Think it was in 06 he talked the C.O. of 2nd into having the Bn. pay for my ticket to the 2nd Recon ball. Spent the entire week hanging out at the Bn. At the ball one L/Cpl asked me if I was Kocher's dad. Kocher let me take his M-4 to a range. Two snipers took me. One was KIA the next deployment. Last thing I told the dude was be safe I had enough ghosts in my closet.

He also talked HBO into paying for my flight and room for the GK screening in Burbank.

If this goes right attached is a flick of him and I at the ball. It's obvious, I'm the semi-old fart. (2nd try)

 

[masonea]

Cayenne6

Yep, that's the guy. That's an awesome pic. Although, that must be from 05. He was a SSgt in 06 while deployed. I'm not even sure if I remember him being at the ball in 06. After we got back in Oct 06 he got out, and started doing that GK stuff. I remember when he stopped by battalion one day, full beard and all, asking if we had any expended AT-4's he could use for the set of GK. He's a pretty awesome dude, if you ask me. I remember when his truck got hit by an IED, and he had a cast on, and they wouldn't let him go on any missions till he was cleared by BAS. So he broke off the part of the cast around his hand, showed a Doc he could still shoot, and was cleared.

 

[Cayenne6]

masonea

Time sure does book. I couldn't remember if it was 05 or 06. As usual, faced with a 50/50 choice I screw up. I stay corn-fused most of the time anyway. Enjoyed the time with 2nd and got a huge kick out of the ball. The C.O. was the speaker. It was the best speech I've had at any of the Balls I've been to. It really wasn't one. He just talked like we were all behind the barracks. He didn't mince words to spare the women folk either.

Kocher's wife at the time emailed me when he got hit. She sent flicks of the truck. Amazes me he didn't get his health record closed out. The dude is riding a lucky streak.

First time I met him was at the DC reunion in 04. Him and Eddie Wright were guests at the luncheon. It was my privilege to meet them outside and escort them into the luncheon hall. Both were recouping from the Bravo ambush when Morel was KIA. Didn't talk to him much that day but during the next year we started emailing and talking to each other via phone.

After he got involved with GK he called me a couple of times from Africa and sent flicks. When he got back he called to ask me if I was interested in going to the screening in Burbank. Told him to give me the date and I'd get the plane ticket and room. He told me not to because he was going to talk HBO into footing the bill. He's called a couple of times since joining the private force.

Eddie tain't no slouch either. From what I can tell he has a great attitude. I was concerned about greeting him at the reunion. Didn't know if I was supposed to offer my hand to him. Didn't know if both arms were still bandaged or what. He walked around the back of the car, stuck out his right new hand, and hollered, shake the stump. He was grinning like a chessy (sp) cat eatin shit. I own land north of Houston not far from where he lives. I meet with him for supper when he's in town. There are a couple of other Iraqi 1st Reconners I meet while there.

SF

 

[Hitman2/3]

Hitman


Way back when we weren't operators, vetted, or go on missions. We were team members, some Recon trained and some not, who went on patrols. Not trying to piss you off or make fun of the now-a-day terminology. I have the greatest respect for your generation. Just an example of change.
Have no idea how I missed your explanation post. Guess I have to chalk it up to posting while on my first cup of "get me started". Having absolutely no knowledge of the school I have to take a back seat to those who know. At best I'm a product of my environment which is so far in the past it feels like the stone age of Recon. I can see both sides of the coin. The need to keep the qualifications strict to weed out the inferior stacked up against inexperience coming into a Recon unit because numbers have to be met. I see what it takes today to be Recon and wonder if I could toe the mark.
When the Bn. hit Nam in 66 it was filled with nothing but highly trained Reconners. By Sept. 70 it was down to mostly warm bodies and ability to fire a 16. C, D, E, & 1st Force pulled out leaving us drastically undermanned. As guys who were left rotated out of country there were very few Reconners transferring in. Replacements mostly came from volunteers from the grunts. When we couldn't get them a rep from the Bn. would go to Freedom Hill and set in the movie theater until after the movie started. He'd get the movie stopped, introduce himself, then wait for the mass exodus. He would talk to the few who were left and end up with a couple volunteers. Getting non-Reconners would seem like a recipe for disaster or at the very least the performance of the Bn. would take a big hit but neither happened. What we did just naturally weeded out those who couldn't take the pressure. Surprisingly there were very few who got shitcanned or left of their own choosing. Out of that crowd came some damn good men who ended up great team leaders. Reconners and guys like me who were made Recon by the experience that took jungle fighting to a new level.
It's not the one who runs the fastest, masters all the physical aspects, or possesses the best Recon knowledge. It's the dude with the mental aspect who can not be stopped who carries the day. I can only fall back on my experience. Circumstances not want to put me in Recon. Only reason I volunteered for Recon was I was stupidly hoping the war would be over before the school was out and I wouldn't have to go to Nam. Not bootcamp, training, or 3 months with the grunts changed me from being Jody back on the block. I didn't even willingly transfer to 1st Recon. I was given the choice between the DaNang brig and 1st Recon. I didn't get the want to until the last few days of that faunky 2 week RIP school at the Bn. Had something happen one hot afternoon that changed me so much that the piece of shit I was died completely and who I became was born. Even at that I fought the system. I had been pushed off the porch into a pack of big dogs then in just a few months pushed to the front. Once there I have never looked back. I became something that to me is more important than anything I will ever do in my life, a Recon team leader. I was privileged to lead better men than myself into combat while managing to have been undoubtedly the worst team leader in the Bn. by Recon standards.
Guess this is my long winded way of saying that even though that school isn't what a combat hardened Reconner thinks it should be the guys who attend that school at least have the want to that will get them started. The school will teach them the basics and when they go through the next phases the weak will be weeded out. If not the Bn. will take care of most of them. There are always a few who slip through.
I am not disagreeing with you in any way. Just presenting the other side of the coin. Only time will tell how Recon will be affected. Just as the bootcamp you went through wasn't the bootcamp I went through and the bootcamp I went through wasn't the bootcamp of the 30's and 40's it's the finished product that matters. I have been privileged and honored to walk among men who stormed the beaches in the Pacific, have had lengthy visits with those who fought the bitter cold of Korea, walked and fought in the rice paddies of Nam with the grunts, booked and fought on high speed trails with Nam Reconners, and mingled with your generation. I see no difference in any of the groups despite the difference in training.

The 6
A one time 10 pecenter

No offence taken. Someone with your experiences will always have my full attention. I don't think anyone really has a problem with the "your school is easier than my school" at least not seriously. I think it’s been more of a question of are the standards that are now in place sufficient to say a Marine is good to go.

In recent classes there have been people who never asked to be 0321's tried to quit and were still pushed through. Some of those same individuals have made it to a unit and showed as much enthusiasm and proficiency there as they did at BRC. I'm sure I don't have to tell you how much of a danger someone can be on a mission when they never asked to be there.

Granted the Battalion usually catches those individuals, but it’s just a shame that they ever made it that far.

Supposedly they are going to be correcting a lot of the problems, and hopefully that will work. Like you said though time will tell. Hopefully the standard is maintained.

 

[Cayenne6]

Appreciate you not taking offence. If you look at 1st Recon's history you'll see that no matter how good the Bn. trained when it was time to hit a combat zone it had to rethink things and gear up in a hurry to fight a different way. The Corps starts a war the way it finished the last one. Up until Iraq no one knew how to use the Bn. Then over time changed things several times. I fought a completely different war than Reconners from late 69 back. Result is the Bn. was constantly learning by OJT. Worst years were early 67 - middle 69. It wasn't unqualified lower enlisted but officers and higher enlisted who come to the Bn. looking to get their CAR with a Recon unit or idiots trying to run things like a grunt Bn. Lot of guys ended up KIA because of it.

Your generation is a prime example. What you guys did was completely out of Recon's bag of tricks. It bore a slight resemblance to what a lot of us did in 70/71. We still ran in teams but were allowed to get out of the snoop & poop mode to walk amongst the Philistines smiting them hip, thigh, and between the eyes. In that case being highly Recon trained worked against the Bn. at first. In early Jan. 70 when Drumright activated the change the team leaders with the Recon mentality wouldn't go along with the program. They preferred to sit back and call in support rather than go down and mix it up. Not until after the pull out in Sept. 70 did things really start to change. As new team leaders took over they adopted the kick ass mentality. As a point/APL I hit my first basecamp Oct. 25, 70. Next patrol out I was the PL and from then on we worked primarily in basecamps. We did everything Recon was not supposed to do. We ran high speed trails because we knew there would be a basecamp in either direction. Even if the basecamp was out of our haven we could usually mix it up with gooks going to or from them. What we did was akin to an LA street gang doing drive-bys. It took no Recon training to do what we did. Not much tactical knowledge either. Just sneak up, unload on them, then call in all the support we had to get us out of what we got into.

Constantly changing calls for men who have the ability to do it mentally in a hurry. To me, this is where the schools come in. Yea, Recon needs men who can do it physically but all the physical endurance in the world won't help if the mentality isn't there. I'd rather have a team mate who is like a station wagon that keeps running, plowing through road blocks, and turning on an instants notice than a sports car hauling ass too fast and overshooting everything. I only had one Sports car on my team, My second Doc. He had been in several different Recon units. He was what you guys would call a high speed operator. He knew more than the rest of us combined. He came to us when 1st Force pulled out. Five minutes into his first patrol he was ready to jump ship. Years later he would tell me that he wanted to have me call the birds back so he could get out. Four more days would show him that maybe he would stick around for a while. Took me a couple of patrols to break him of all the nasty habits all the other Recon units taught him but once done he fit in nicely. That's why in the long run we weren't really Recon. We just operated under the Recon banner.

Yea, I had a lot of great experiences with Recon in Nam. I had a ball doing what we did but there are times that I'd almost swap them for the opportunity to have all the training you guys had. I had no jump, scuba, demolition, or anything else. Engaging in a root hog or die firefight is one hell of a rush but I've never felt the rush of bailing out of an aircraft at high altitudes. That's got to be great.

Thanks for the opportunity to swap thoughts.

SF

 

[Teufel]

MART was a great idea. Good article. This stood out for me, though:







All PFC and L/Cpl 03's need to learn this shit in SOI. It needs to be part of the AIT curriculum. Arty, gunship support, medevacs--this should be required learning for all infantry MOS Marines, and not reserved for Recon trainee E2s and E3s. It's essential for small-unit combat in isolated AOs. I had to learn OJT and I did call up dust-offs and 155 as a L/Cpl. Anybody in your squad is a potential Last Man Standing. The guy next to you may have to call in your medevac. Better to learn it in a controlled environment.

Marines come out of SOI barely knowing how to do a rush range. You could cover CAS and other supporting arms at SOI but it would be overload. There are a lot of things young Marines need to learn but there is only so much time at SOI. This is why the Marine Corps relies on units to cover these topics during block 1 through block 4 training. The OIF and OEF PTP specifically covers several of the training METLs you are talking about.

In MCT we spent about 10 minutes going over CAS and that was the only time it was ever covered throughout my four years active. I think CAS is something every Marine should be taught to a proficient level; you never know when you might need it. It would be horrible to be caught in a situation where you needed CAS but were unable to call it in.

I agree it would be nice if everyone could call in CAS but it takes a lot of training and more importantly a lot of controls to train someone to be proficient in CAS. Right now the Marine Corps is having a hard time getting a JTAC/FAC per infantry battalion and sourcing ANGLICO the air to get their certifications. Also, keep in mind that a lot can go wrong with a untrained air controller. Right now in Afghanistan you won't get drops unless you are a certified and current Joint Tactical Air Controller. If you are in an extremis situation you may get drops, but only if you sound really confident and competent over the radio.

This doesn't mean that Marines can't learn how to do a nine line or talk a bird on to target but that is all unit level training. I had my FAC give my Marines CAS classes when I was in the grunts and everyone knew how to give a nine line. I am confident that my platoon sergeant and all my squad leaders could call for air safely.

 

[PunchDrunkCasper]

In MCT we spent about 10 minutes going over CAS and that was the only time it was ever covered throughout my four years active. I think CAS is something every Marine should be taught to a proficient level; you never know when you might need it. It would be horrible to be caught in a situation where you needed CAS but were unable to call it in.

Im currently in SOI, gotta love the names given to each company.

From what i've heard around these companies, not sure about MCT, but there are some motivated instructors who will teach you the required ammount and more.
They'll go over the things you will need to know, or whatd be necessary to know when entering the fleet, such as CAS and IDF, and how to call to shift onto target.

Im new to all of this, and not sure if the post was covered, but I dont have much time on libo left and was fiending for some SS forums, haha.
But from what i've heard and seen around here, those types of things would all depend on the company and instructors at hand, and how motivated the students are to learn and go beyond that schedule they have for learning.

But I agree, they should teach you all the basics and the stuff you will need to know, especially since I hear people are just graduating and leaving to units that are set to deploy a few weeks after. Sorry, went off on a little tangent, but like he stated, its something that should be taught, or should be known, because they speak of so many times that NCO's dont even know some of the basics that they should, and rely too heavily on certain things that could fail them in the future.

Just my :2c:
Libo ending soon, hope to hear from you all after I graduate and go to my unit. Said to be 1/8. Take care all...And to all, good luck and stay safe.

 

[XRecon205]

Great thread.

I had great experiences in a team environment. In the 80's it was ARS, or
Amphibious Reconnaissance School. I managed to get pneumonia, and they "offered" me the option of dropping out. (Maybe I got sick because of the 4:30 am frozen swims out of Little Creek. Go swim team 2!) Some of you may remember that you had to improve your PFT every time.

There was no way I was dropping out, because quitting is not an option. I always thought it was either a test of my integrity or a requirement for them to ask in the event I died trying.

I managed to get through, of course. Quite a bit of puking and what not.

ARS covered Land Nav, Tides and currents, Call for Fire, lots of PT, and boat and water ops. Jump came later, as did Scuba. Not everyone was afforded the oportunity for both. At one time they have a platoon for water insertions, and one for jump. Quite often the billets went to Officers who were there for a short time to get shiny stuff and move on. Needless to say, anyone who got a billet and failed was soon on their way out.

Cold Weather training and Jungle training were added to CAX live fire. All in all, pretty decent overall operators. Boom Boom rooms and stuff came later. Sub Ops were out there, and working with DEA was an eye opener.

I believe the reasons Recon has been kept quiet involves the argument of the "elite within the elite" concerns. SF had the same sort of struggles initially. The other factor is the type of men attracted to Recon. (Quiet.) As stated earlier, you are essentially asked to perform all tasks normally done by officers. I remember a 2 star looking at me across a map table and asking me what I thought. I didn't even hesitate to state my opinion. He merely asked me if my team could really do what I suggested, and what I needed to get it done. Great memory now.

When I got out I remember thinking, "Great, all I'm qualified to do is blow stuff up and shoot really well." I was way off. After the cops thing and the Weapons team, I moved on and discovered the greatest thing I had learned. Leadership. Physical abilities may fade, but the ability to get people to do things never goes away.

Priceless.

Of the two current fronts, Afghanistan is actually suited for Spec Ops. Small teams with good support and comm will prove to be more effective. Proof that mobility is key comes from trying to hold outer areas with fewer personnel. Slightly Reminiscent of SF and Vietnam. While I can observe, it's really not my place to critique the current decisions to increase Recon number in the way they have chosen. Mission dictates. I did what needed to be done in my time, the way it needed to be done. The new generation is a different breed, but will prove to be one cut from the same cloth, with the same blood in their veins.

I have had the chance to go down to Bn and spend time with the "new breed", and they are brothers. Younger, different brothers. Smart, squared away, and motivated. They will prove themselves as we all did. Each generation is different, but in the end we share a common bond.

"The Title of Recon Marine is My honor."

 

[NOMAD]

Wookie those were the good old days!!! God how the time has come and gone but the memories remain!!

 

[leonrazurado]

Hate to revive an old thread but has the Fix Recon initiative and the work done by Master Guns Yarolem been seen as a success within the community?

 

[Teufel]

Hate to revive an old thread but has the Fix Recon initiative and the work done by Master Guns Yarolem been seen as a success within the community?

To be honest the Marine Corps has been "fixing" recon since it was created. This last initiative originated from Recon Training Company and the recon office at Plans, Policies and Operations and was largely a recruiting effort to get more lateral transfers from the FMF. Most of our Recon Marines come straight to BRC out of SOI now. The community didn't change its mission essential task list or command relationships because of the Fix Recon initiative. Neither organization mentioned above have tasking authority over the operational recon units. Each MEF and Division will determine what and how their Recon Battalion and Force Recon Company is doing.

 

[Teufel]

@Freefalling in hindsight I should have started a separate memorial page for Bob.

 

[AWP]

@Freefalling in hindsight I should have started a separate memorial page for Bob.

No worries. I started a thread for him.

Sgt Robert Glenn "Bob" Morris, Marine Recon

I also changed his Tag to White. You and your fellow Marines have my condolences.

Blue Skies.

 

[leonrazurado]

To be honest the Marine Corps has been "fixing" recon since it was created. This last initiative originated from Recon Training Company and the recon office at Plans, Policies and Operations and was largely a recruiting effort to get more lateral transfers from the FMF. Most of our Recon Marines come straight to BRC out of SOI now. The community didn't change its mission essential task list or command relationships because of the Fix Recon initiative. Neither organization mentioned above have tasking authority over the operational recon units. Each MEF and Division will determine what and how their Recon Battalion and Force Recon Company is doing.

I appreciate the response. From an outside perspective, I always admired Recon and wondered how these past ten years would change the structure and mission of the battalions.