Iraq and ISIS Discussion

[TheSiatonist]

What do you all think of this? Seems pretty interesting (to me at least) as he mentions about the histories starting with the Middle East, oil, CIA, and ISIS.

I listened to about half of it a while ago but had to go to work. I will finish the other half later.

 

[Viper1]

The broad coalition the President spoke of may include: Britain, France, Turkey, Germany, Italy, Canada, Australia, Poland, Denmark, UAE, Iraq.

There are attempts to get Jordan and Egypt on board as well.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/09/john-kerry-us-coalition-isil-110626.html
http://www.worldbulletin.net/headlines/144087/kerry-in-iraq-to-build-coalition-against-isil-updated

 

[Gunz]

Jihadists are like fireants. Destroy one mound, another pops up somewhere else. There's no possibility of an all-encompassing decisive victory. So about the best you can do is control the outbreaks through degradation. After 9/11 it was pretty apparent that we might be fighting this enemy, in all its various guises and incarnations, for decades and maybe generations. The sheeple can't seem to wrap their heads around that.

Given the circumstances I don't know what more any president could do without committing Big Army/Big Marines. A coalition is a good thing. Ramped up air/drone strikes are a good thing. Giving our SOF/SF guys people to kill is a good thing. Arming and advising "moderate" Syrian rebels is...well...probably a dance in the viper pit.

I heard Netanyahu some years ago testify before a US Congressional committee. Why we haven't listened very carefully to this man is beyond me.

 

[AWP]

The odds of another Battle of Tours or Horns of Hattin are low, not impossible though. The world has learned not to engage us in a pitched battle, but to wage whatever we're calling it this year. Asymmetric warfare, Low Intensity Conflict, an insurgency... I think those are the conflicts of the near future. Whether this is a political war under the guise of religion or a religious war under the guise of freedom (politics) doesn't matter if we continue to address it in terms of "democracy" or a Western-style government. We have to run away from this notion that our friends are clean and pure. Sometimes they are ugly "frenemies with benefits" like narcotics or human trafficking and human right's violations. We can do what's charitible and "good" or we can do what is right for our country. I'm not saying the solution is a thousand My Lai's, but our hands will be dirty, names will be called, casualties taken, and even old alliances and friendly nations may fall by the wayside.

Trade...trade is the lifeblood of nations and we need to check this menance before every nation's blood is threatened. Forget peace and democracy, those matter little when you can't feed your family. I don't care about elections in some 'Stan, I don't want to see metal caskets arrive in Dover only for us to go BACK to the same toilet over and over and over... "Measure twice, cut once." We need to do the job properly or don't do it at all.

But we need to stop wringing our hands like a bunh of old women in a bad Hollywood movie. we need to accept hard choices must be made...and lived with, unless we're willing to explain to our children and grandchildren why we failed and those consequences upon their lives.

We've made such a mess of things over the last 14 years if our children hated us I couldn't blame them.

 

[Gunz]

...We can do what's charitible and "good" or we can do what is right for our country..."Measure twice, cut once." We need to do the job properly or don't do it at all...we need to accept hard choices must be made...and lived with, unless we're willing to explain to our children and grandchildren why we failed and those consequences upon their lives...

Well said and I couldn't agree more. In a perfect world we'd pursue these bastards into the pits of hell because we'd realize that there is no room on this small planet for their kind of twisted vision. War to the knife, the knife to the hilt. Unfortunately, however, the Sheeple don't want hard choices. And the Sheeple elect the politicians. Nobody has the stomach for it. As hawkish as I am I'm leery of the prospect of any return of conventional forces to Iraq just because I know that whatever we do won't be enough. We won't stick with it, we won't see it through. We can send six divisions over there, engage ISIL, kill thousands of them, declare victory, and watch the remnants melt into the urban rat's maze. And then where are we? They start planting IEDs and running ambushes from civilian areas and it's deja vu 2007.

I fear our grandchildren may be hating us and fighting Jihadists at the same time.

 

[AWP]

Well said and I couldn't agree more. In a perfect world we'd pursue these bastards into the pits of hell because we'd realize that there is no room on this small planet for their kind of twisted vision. War to the knife, the knife to the hilt. Unfortunately, however, the Sheeple don't want hard choices. And the Sheeple elect the politicians. Nobody has the stomach for it. As hawkish as I am I'm leery of the prospect of any return of conventional forces to Iraq just because I know that whatever we do won't be enough. We won't stick with it, we won't see it through. We can send six divisions over there, engage ISIL, kill thousands of them, declare victory, and watch the remnants melt into the urban rat's maze. And then where are we? They start planting IEDs and running ambushes from civilian areas and it's deja vu 2007.

I fear our grandchildren may be hating us and fighting Jihadists at the same time.

I agree with you, but we also need to understand this is a war at home as well. "Warheads on foreheads" will matter as much as educating our citizens. If we keep screaming "Threat!" and nothing happens, people will become complacent. We won't know how many genuine "no shit" attacks were halted (hence the lack of any action), and so this becomes a vicious cycle of death, response, rhetoric, a cooldown, and then death, a response...

When I see words like "Sheeple" I agree, but I cringe; people won't listen if they're insulted. We shouldn't mollycoddle them, but name calling won't get us anywhere. We're fighting ideology and religion, two very difficult issues to counter. Educate, woo, seduce, re-train, recruit...brand it however you will, but that's what we need to do here at home. People need the will to fight and we've lost that will.

 

[DA SWO]

When I see words like "Sheeple" I agree, but I cringe; people won't listen if they're insulted. We shouldn't mollycoddle them, but name calling won't get us anywhere. We're fighting ideology and religion, two very difficult issues to counter. Educate, woo, seduce, re-train, recruit...brand it however you will, but that's what we need to do here at home. People need the will to fight and we've lost that will.

We can't educate because those that control the education system have subscribed to an ideology that allows radicals access to our kids, while denying access to those whose viewpoints are different.

People won't stand up until car bombs and Sharia Law happen in America, then it may be too late.

 

[Marine0311]

We can't educate because those that control the education system have subscribed to an ideology that allows radicals access to our kids, while denying access to those whose viewpoints are different.

People won't stand up until car bombs and Sharia Law happen in America, then it may be too late.

My Grandfather is a World War 2 Army Battle of the Buldge veteran (Bronze Star). He is disgusted when he watches the news about all this shit happening. Granted he is 92 but still hardcore. He wants to pick up his rifle and go kick some ass haha.

Meanwhile today our society is weak.

 

[RackMaster]

I think the release of DomCT success stories and full details of the threats would help change some sheeple minds. Don't identify organization or unit, just the faces of the fucks we caught and how many innocents would have died.

 

[JHD]

I mentioned going to the WWII museum last week, and was thinking, during that time, the US was trying so hard to stay out of the conflicts world wide, until finally we were sucked in. But once we were finally sucked in, everyone (citizens and military alike) were all in. The mindset of people now is pretty much "meh" until it affects them directly. We are currently being lulled to sleep. I am hoping we wake up before it is too late.

 

[Grunt]

...help change some sheeple minds...

One would hope so, but I don't feel it would happen. Many people don't really know what is going on in the ME. They have lost interest. The beheadings caused "shock value" and some instant anger for some, but many have gone about their daily lives while losing interest about things happening "over there."

If it doesn't involve them or a close friend/family member, it is often seen as someone else's problem.

I hate to have to type that...but, I feel it is the regrettable truth.

 

[TLDR20]

@CDG, who are most people that you refer to? I go to school with a lot of most people, and most of them are very up to date with at least what is going on with ISIS. When we are going to war people pay attention. I was suprised at how well versed some of the younger kids (18-19) were when it came to ISIS, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and even the plight if the Kurds.

 

[CDG]

@CDG, who are most people that you refer to? I go to school with a lot of most people, and most of them are very up to date with at least what is going on with ISIS. When we are going to war people pay attention. I was suprised at how well versed some of the younger kids (18-19) were when it came to ISIS, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and even the plight if the Kurds.

???? @TLDR20, I think you mixed myself and Agoge up.

 

[Gunz]

I agree with you, but we also need to understand this is a war at home as well. "Warheads on foreheads" will matter as much as educating our citizens. If we keep screaming "Threat!" and nothing happens, people will become complacent. We won't know how many genuine "no shit" attacks were halted (hence the lack of any action), and so this becomes a vicious cycle of death, response, rhetoric, a cooldown, and then death, a response...

When I see words like "Sheeple" I agree, but I cringe; people won't listen if they're insulted. We shouldn't mollycoddle them, but name calling won't get us anywhere. We're fighting ideology and religion, two very difficult issues to counter. Educate, woo, seduce, re-train, recruit...brand it however you will, but that's what we need to do here at home. People need the will to fight and we've lost that will.

Israel is the perfect template for what you're describing, Free. I don't know if that kind of national vigilance is possible in this country without repeated attacks. It didn't take all that long after 9/11 before many of our citizens lapsed into the complacency you're talking about. There may be widespread outrage over ISIL atrocities now, but how long before the tank runs dry? A national will to fight should last the duration of the fight. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I question our ability to re-educate, woo and seduce our people into that kind of enduring warrior spirit.

 

[Grunt]

QUOTE="CDG, post: 352660, member: 2530"]???? @TLDR20, I think you mixed myself and Agoge up.[/QUOTE]

I think you may be right.

@TLDR20 The "most" that I was referring to should have been "many". But, with that said, my son is a junior in college right now majoring in Political Science and is currently taking several ME classes. Currently, I do a lot with him and his peers. Those that have a vested interest in the ME know what is going on there in relation to ISIS, but...those are the few in my opinion.

In dealing with a lot of the people that I meet through him, there aren't very many that know what is going on with ISIS. In fact, the majority of them -- yep, the majority -- have no concept of what ISIS even stands for. To me, that is disappointing. I am just the opposite of you in that I am disappointed at the amount of 18-20 year olds that have no clue as to what is truly happening there. From your post, it appears you have the pleasure of being around young adults who obviously make a conscious effort to stay apprized of current events. I wish more did. That is one of the few things that impress me these days.

My son has a personal mission of trying to school as many peers as he can on what is happening outside of their small world. I have always taught him to stay abreast of world events because one never knows when we (U.S.) will find ourselves right in the middle of whatever is happening wherever. We had a conversation last week about how he can't understand how so many of the people he hangs around with is so clueless.

I was recently talking with people that I work with. I was unpleasantly surprised at how few of them actually have a grasp of what is happening over there. Many can talk about ISIS, the ME, and beheadings, but few of them can speak of it at a level any deeper than what they have seen on the news.

Hopefully that somewhat answered your question.

 

[Etype]

Many people don't really know what is going on in the ME.

Many people, including the civilian leadership don't know. I'm so tired of hearing, "Sunni, Shia, and Kurd," that's like saying, "Catholic, Baptist, and Mexican."

I remember a time back at Sather Air Base (BIAP) hearing a DOS lady call a chow hall worker, "habibi," Arabic for- honey bun, toots, sweetie, etc.
I tried to explain to her that he was a TCN contractor and that was Sri Lanka, or Bangladeshi, or maybe Indian- but definitely not Iraqi, and not Arabic speaking.
She said, "how do you know?"
I said, "look at him, it's obvious."
She said, "well I've been calling him that for a long time and he always smiles."
Wow, can't argue with that logic. Those are the people that are driving the train.

 

[AWP]

Israel is the perfect template for what you're describing, Free. I don't know if that kind of national vigilance is possible in this country without repeated attacks. It didn't take all that long after 9/11 before many of our citizens lapsed into the complacency you're talking about. There may be widespread outrage over ISIL atrocities now, but how long before the tank runs dry? A national will to fight should last the duration of the fight. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I question our ability to re-educate, woo and seduce our people into that kind of enduring warrior spirit.

You are probably correct, but if you are then we've lost this war.

 

[BloodStripe]

You are probably correct, but if you are then we've lost this war.

I want to hit agree and hate all at the same time. I agree because it's true, but I hate it because it's true.

 

[pardus]

I mentioned going to the WWII museum last week, and was thinking, during that time, the US was trying so hard to stay out of the conflicts world wide, until finally we were sucked in. But once we were finally sucked in, everyone (citizens and military alike) were all in. The mindset of people now is pretty much "meh" until it affects them directly. We are currently being lulled to sleep. I am hoping we wake up before it is too late.

Actually neither of those sentences are accurate.

 

[JHD]

Actually neither of those sentences are accurate.

That was my take on it, although I am sure not 100% were, but largely it seemed like that was the case. My reasoning for stating that is that we didn't really enter the war until attacked, even though we were being encouraged to, we resisted. Once we did, our military had to expand as they were so much smaller than the Japanese and Germans. Our citizens seemed more willing to sacrifice for our military than they seem to be willing to do now. The government, political machine, and the people seemed more united for a common cause much more significantly then than now.