Israel

[Marauder06]

You're still ignorant. I will not try educate you as you seem to 'already know it all". Of course there's propaganda and there's the truth, we, the GOOD GUYS have both, the HAMAS only propaganda. I've been there, have you?

You've already been warned once by the staff. This type of inflammatory rhetoric does nothing to advance the discussion. If you can't talk rationally and objectively about the subject, then please stay out of it altogether.

I know this is an important subject for you, as it is literally life-or-death for not only Israel but for you personally. But you're not going to educate people or nudge peoples' beliefs along if you're going to take this approach. You definitely won't be able to do it if you're banned.

Signed, a guy who is 100% pro-Israel but still has a site with standards to maintain.

 

[hoepoe]

You've already been warned once by the staff. This type of inflammatory rhetoric does nothing to advance the discussion. If you can't talk rationally and objectively about the subject, then please stay out of it altogether.

I know this is an important subject for you, as it is literally life-or-death for not only Israel but for you personally. But you're not going to educate people or nudge peoples' beliefs along if you're going to take this approach. You definitely won't be able to do it if you're banned.

Signed, a guy who is 100% pro-Israel but still has a site with standards to maintain.

I have no rational discussion to make with someone who already has made up his mind. I have tried over the years to place facts before people, but once theirmind is made up, it falls on deaf ears.

Respectfully written (from my bomb shelter)

Hoepoe

 

[Marauder06]

I have no rational discussion to make with someone who already has made up his mind. I have tried over the years to place facts before people, but once theirmind is made up, it falls on deaf ears.

Respectfully written (from my bomb shelter)

Hoepoe

Noted. My best to you and yours during this trying time for your country. I hope this situation is brought to a decisive end shortly so everyone affected can go back to living their lives. Maybe we can talk about this more in person when I'm back in Israel next year. In the meantime, I'm sending you a PM.

 

[DA SWO]

I have no rational discussion to make with someone who already has made up his mind. I have tried over the years to place facts before people, but once theirmind is made up, it falls on deaf ears.

Respectfully written (from my bomb shelter)

Hoepoe

Be safe, as an aside. I find it interesting in this age of cell phone cameras that a quick youtube search only shows official videos from both sides, and no cell phone stuff from inside bunkers recording near misses.

 

[AWP]

One could maybe argue that Israel owns some of the blame in years past. Lately I don't know how one could make that claim. I laugh at people who trumpet the UN but decry Israel's existence. They seem to forget the "who" behind Israel's independence and the UN resolution and its attempted partitioning plan. A bunch of Jewish folk didn't show up in the desert one day, lick the sand, and proclaim it theirs. People also overlook the terrorism Israeli citizens have endured since 1948. As horrible as 9/11 was, it doesn't compare to the decades of misery Israeli citizens have endured. People also forget or ignore that these terrorists are in many cases proxy forces trained, funded, and commanded by other sovreign nations. I'm pretty sure that's a valid casus belli to most countries, but we're supposed to condemn Israel for its response and ignore the role played by other nations?

This is a war which began before 1948 and will probably continue until after many of us are dead and gone. Show me a "clean war" with a "clean side." Go ahead, I'll wait.

Blame and mistakes from decades past are kind of moot to the people huddled in a bunker. I'm genuinely sorry about the Palestinian children caught up in this, but what about the Jewish children enduring rocket attacks? One's worth more than the other?

Western nations can't argue that we have the right to defend ourselves but restrict Israel from doing the same. Does anyone really think Israel would bomb Gaza if Hamas or other groups weren't lobbing rockets from that territory?

 

[Poccington]

One could maybe argue that Israel owns some of the blame in years past. Lately I don't know how one could make that claim. I laugh at people who trumpet the UN but decry Israel's existence. They seem to forget the "who" behind Israel's independence and the UN resolution and its attempted partitioning plan. A bunch of Jewish folk didn't show up in the desert one day, lick the sand, and proclaim it theirs. People also overlook the terrorism Israeli citizens have endured since 1948. As horrible as 9/11 was, it doesn't compare to the decades of misery Israeli citizens have endured. People also forget or ignore that these terrorists are in many cases proxy forces trained, funded, and commanded by other sovreign nations. I'm pretty sure that's a valid casus belli to most countries, but we're supposed to condemn Israel for its response and ignore the role played by other nations?

This is a war which began before 1948 and will probably continue until after many of us are dead and gone. Show me a "clean war" with a "clean side." Go ahead, I'll wait.

Blame and mistakes from decades past are kind of moot to the people huddled in a bunker. I'm genuinely sorry about the Palestinian children caught up in this, but what about the Jewish children enduring rocket attacks? One's worth more than the other?

Western nations can't argue that we have the right to defend ourselves but restrict Israel from doing the same. Does anyone really think Israel would bomb Gaza if Hamas or other groups weren't lobbing rockets from that territory?

The UN are bent.

Nobody is talking about decades past. Illegal settlements in the West Bank, the collective punishment of the Gaza blockade, childish actions like Netanyahu giving the go ahead for more settlements the day after Palestine gained recognition as a non member observer state... All relatively recent incidents which nobody can say that at the very least, do absolutely nothing to de-escalate the situation.

Anyone who says that Israel has no right to do defend themselves while rockets are being hoofed their way is a moron. However, I'm also of the opinion that the blame doesn't lie solely on the Palestinian side.

 

[Poccington]

Was releasing the video propaganda, or in response to a hamas claim that they are targeting civilians?

I personally hope Hamas gets it's assed kicked, and that goes for their enablers.

Releasing what video?

 

[Scotth]

I will not try educate you as you seem to 'already know it all".

Then why even get in the debate if your not willing to share anything more then telling people with opposing opinions they're wrong?

We should all be offering opinions and points and counter points instead of attacks.

For me we can do this once again and were will it get us? Your not going to kill your way out of this problem and 5 decades and countless engagements should have taught us all that. How many incursions is it going to take before we say this isn't working? At this point Hamas's capabilities, and when we say capabilities we mean firing ineffective rockets, might be getting degraded but with the people of Gaza they are only getting stronger.

After inflicting a bunch of death and destruction on Gaza do you think they are going to be more or less willing to make peace with Israel?

 

[Scotth]

One could maybe argue that Israel owns some of the blame in years past. Lately I don't know how one could make that claim.

Even if some of us believe that Israel is wrong in some of their actions it doesn't even remotely translate into not believing Israel has a right to exist.

But how many times do we have to do the same cycle of armed conflict, negotiated end to hostilities with the promise of some final settlement negotiation that go on forever with no progress. The cycles ends with more rocket fire or more new settlement construction announced. Both sides sabotage the future in different ways and that is the point many of us want to make.

 

[Poccington]

Reports from Sky News that Hamas are claiming they've captured an Israeli soldier.

Hopefully not true and if it is, hopefully the Israeli's get him home safe.

 

[DA SWO]

Releasing what video?

IDF has released videos showing airstrikes being called off because civilians were too close to the target.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

IME, the Arab-Israeli conflict is easily the most difficult topic to discuss, let alone debate. When I lived in Jordan, no one responded with anything but honest curiosity when they found out I was an atheist, but if I brought up the smallest shred of evidence for the Israeli narrative, it unleashed a shitstorm of a debate. The same thing happens here in America if I say anything against Israel.

Few on either side (IME) is willing to accept the smallest amount of criticism or blame. You can appreciate Israeli security concerns while mourning the loss of innocents in Gaza. You can understand Israel constructing the wall while feeling for a family in the West Bank who just had their home leveled. Voicing concern for Gaza does not make one an apologist for Hamas. Acknowledging Israel's right to defend themselves does not equate to wishing Palestinians were eradicated. Refusing to acknowledge the loss and blame on both sides is a disservice to everyone.

 

[Poccington]

IDF has released videos showing airstrikes being called off because civilians were too close to the target.

Ah right sorry, I hadn't seen it.

Makes sense, with civvies taking the beating they're taking and high profile incidents like the kids on the beach, the IDF has to show that they're not just engaging in a turkey shoot.

 

[Ranger Psych]

When you go into the house that just had a "Low Orbit Ion Cannon firing warning" explosion go off... and go sit on the fucking roof.. you make yourself a combatant. Sorry, not going to even remotely have a feel about that shit.

 

[CQB]

And each one a glorious failure, fucks are not given.

 

[Gunz]

In '73 when 5 Syrian divisions were smashing through the Golan and the only units there to stop them were a few hastily assembled IDF brigades, my battalion (2/6) was roused from sleep, told to pack our seabags and fall out. We were issued weapons. We sat outside and smoked awaiting the trucks that would take us, presumably, to C-141s. Many of us, myself included, wanted to go. We never did. One reason was because Israel, somehow, against insurmountable odds and crushing assaults on two fronts, managed to stop the invaders and turn a disaster into a punishing counter offensive.

That time we almost had to live up to our pledge to support the Jewish state. We have done everything possible since then to join the chorus of condemnation against her. No man, no country is without sin. But Israel deserves better from us. Her enemies have shown their savagery time and time again, the list of atrocities, mass murders, terrorist attacks, unprovoked assaults against innocent civilians goes on and on. In my biased opinion, brutal retaliation by Israel is not only justified but warranted by the precedents set by her foes.

If we had to live under constant threat of annihilation, we'd be just as hard and cold.

 

[CQB]

Whilst many sing Kumbaya for Gaza, IS crucify Arab Christians.

 

[JHD]

There is some truth to Netanyahu's statement to the effect that if Arab's put down their weapons, the action would lead to peace in the world. If Israel were to put down their weapons, there would be no more Israel. Not to say that Israel and her leaders are without fault, but they certainly have the right to exist.

 

[Scotth]

IME, the Arab-Israeli conflict is easily the most difficult topic to discuss, let alone debate. When I lived in Jordan, no one responded with anything but honest curiosity when they found out I was an atheist, but if I brought up the smallest shred of evidence for the Israeli narrative, it unleashed a shitstorm of a debate. The same thing happens here in America if I say anything against Israel.

Few on either side (IME) is willing to accept the smallest amount of criticism or blame. You can appreciate Israeli security concerns while mourning the loss of innocents in Gaza. You can understand Israel constructing the wall while feeling for a family in the West Bank who just had their home leveled. Voicing concern for Gaza does not make one an apologist for Hamas. Acknowledging Israel's right to defend themselves does not equate to wishing Palestinians were eradicated. Refusing to acknowledge the loss and blame on both sides is a disservice to everyone.

Wish I could Like that post x2.

When you go into the house that just had a "Low Orbit Ion Cannon firing warning" explosion go off... and go sit on the fucking roof.. you make yourself a combatant. Sorry, not going to even remotely have a feel about that shit.

or you maybe you're a pissed off person that a foreign government is going to destroy your home and probably your WHOLE families greatest single possession.

Then again you could be a group of children playing on a beach or you could be in a UN shelter or in a hospital and find your assed bombed.

Then again you have to look at the situation from other peoples perspectives. Looking at cause an affect is never a bad idea. How did that bombing campaign work out in Lebanon long term. Remember that campaign when Israel was going to decimate Hezbollah? How did that work out? The pro-Western government was thrown out of power and Hezbollah took over the country.

Inflicting death and destruction on the people of Gaza. Do you think that is going to make them more pro-Israel or more pro-Hamas when it is Hamas that is picking up the pieces after the battle is done?

 

[racing_kitty]

or you maybe you're a pissed off person that a foreign government is going to destroy your home and probably your WHOLE families greatest single possession.

Then again you could be a group of children playing on a beach or you could be in a UN shelter or in a hospital and find your assed bombed.

Then again you have to look at the situation from other peoples perspectives. Looking at cause an affect is never a bad idea. How did that bombing campaign work out in Lebanon long term. Remember that campaign when Israel was going to decimate Hezbollah? How did that work out? The pro-Western government was thrown out of power and Hezbollah took over the country.

Inflicting death and destruction on the people of Gaza. Do you think that is going to make them more pro-Israel or more pro-Hamas when it is Hamas that is picking up the pieces after the battle is done?

So, what exactly do you suggest they do about rockets being stored and launched from schools? Are they supposed to march in, smoke a joint, and hope that the gods of kumbaya wrap their gossamer wings and rose colored glasses around the room as they sign a cease fire? Unless I'm mistaken, using a school or hospital as a depot/launch pad makes it a fair target as per the laws of war. If these innocent, non-violent Palestinians are so happy to keep their beloved homes, then why don't they rise up against Hamas and keep them from storing rockets in their homes? Do you really think that they are gullible enough to believe that Israel just said "Yeah, I hate the roof tiles on that house, it's gotta come down now," every single time? I know that they will fight to the death, so why aren't they fighting the ones who are inviting Israeli aggression literally upon their doorsteps? Oh, yeah, that's right... It's Israel. At what point is their inability to fight against Hamas considered tacit approval?

I had kept a pretty neutral view of this up until Hamas told Egypt and Israel to shove the cease-fire up their asses. At that point, I got the popcorn ready for the ass whipping that Israel is going to mete out, and rightly so. The video where a Hamas spox actually came out and admitted that Israel giving fair warning to civilians to evacuate puts them in compliance with the laws of war, as opposed to Hamas' blatant violations of same, only cemented my opinion.