Israel

[pardus]

So what's worse? Rhetoric or action.

So a country that has a policy of "mowing the lawn" on the region that they control totally. A country that has attacked other sovereign countries in their region or people talking shit while getting their asses kicked?

None of that criticism justify Hamas but it also doesn't excuse Israel as well.

Israel has been invaded with an express purpose of wiping it and the Jews of the map on what, 3 different occasions? '48 - '67 - '73.
Plus the constant terrorists attacks on it's sovereign soil. Israel has done nothing but defensive actions in it's history.
Wake up.

Hitler applauds your view, rejoice in that.


FYI, Not edited by pardus.

 

[CQB]

Others have "mowed the lawn" as well. Algeria for example, Egypt recently, the west generally. Salafists do not like western ways.

So a plague on both their houses then? In that case I'd say Israel is the lesser of two evils.

 

[Scotth]

Israel has been invaded with an express purpose of wiping it and the Jews of the map on what, 3 different occasions? '48 - '67 - '73.
Plus the constant terrorists attacks on it's sovereign soil. Israel has done nothing but defensive actions in it's history.
Wake up.

Hitler applauds your view, rejoice in that.

The world has changed a little in the last 40 years.

 

[Chopstick]

The world has changed a little in the last 40 years.

Check it at about 3:45. Broad daylight, public street Miami, Florida, USA. July 20, 2014. Right after they point they start chanting for Jihad. Fun times.

 

[AWP]

The world has changed a little in the last 40 years.

No it hasn't. People are still people.

 

[DA SWO]

So what's worse? Rhetoric or action.

So a country that has a policy of "mowing the lawn" on the region that they control totally. A country that has attacked other sovereign countries in their region or people talking shit while getting their asses kicked?

None of that criticism justify Hamas but it also doesn't excuse Israel as well.

How is Hamas getting rockets and arms if they totally control the region?

 

[AWP]

I don't think some of the parties involved realize how stupid they sound.

June 2:
http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-hamas-palestinian-government-20140602-story.html

alestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas swore in a new interim government Monday following an agreement with his archrival, the Islamist Hamas movement, to reunify their ranks after seven years of division.
Abbas said in a pre-recorded speech aired on official Palestinian TV after the swearing-in ceremony that the new government -- composed of 17 ministers who do not belong to any political party, including the incumbent prime minister, Rami Hamdallah -- will not be responsible for political negotiations but only for preparing for national elections and running daily life in the Palestinian areas.

July 8:
http://freebeacon.com/national-secu...mas-plays-any-role-in-palestinian-government/

State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki claimed again Tuesday that “no evidence” existed that the terrorist organization Hamas “plays any role” in the Palestinian government.
” Well, we have no evidence that Hamas plays any role in the interim technocratic government, and as far as we know, there have also been no steps taken for the implementation of the reconciliation,” Psaki said. “And obviously, as I mentioned yesterday, given the situation on the ground, it’s difficult to see how the reconciliation process can move forward in the current atmosphere.”

Today, Aug. 3:
http://www.nbcnews.com/#/meet-the-press/meet-press-transcript-august-3-2014-n171576

RIYAD MANSOUR:
Hamas is part of the Palestinian political configuration. The question is how to deal with that. The first step is the national consensus government. Israel is trying to destroy this government. To destroy this government, it's pushing us back into divisions. And allowing Hamas to have support from the Gaza Strip.
The alternative is empower the national consensus government, allow the government of President Mahmoud Abbas to show the people in the Gaza Strip that it’s succeed in having peace and stopping the fighting and addressing the wounds of our people in Gaza, then in lifting the siege in Gaza, giving people hope.

So they are involved, but they aren't, but they are, and Israel is trying to divide the Palestinian gov't? How can it divide the gov't if Hamas isn't a part and Israel is attacking Hamas?

The Palestinians as a whole bear some blame in all of this. If the TX Guard pushed 2-3 miles into Mexico to deal with the border crisis and the US did nothing, could we be angry if Albuquerque or Miami were bombed? I mean, TX did that on its own, they aren't a part of the US gov't, right? The other 49 states have nothing to worry about. We wouldn't want the Palestinians to side with the Jews and attack their Muslim brothers, would we? Far easier, and convenient, to blame this on Israel.

Idiots.

 

[Marauder06]

The world has changed a little in the last 40 years.

The world has changed. Islam has not.

 

[Worldweaver]

By what definition is the Jewish state in even remotely in danger? They're a regional super power. It's a much different world then it was in '67.

Like you I don't think Israel is excused for all of their actions nor do I think Hamas is anywhere near innocent as well.

Does anyone think a policy of "mowing the grass" is a long term solution either?

I was certainly pro-Israel prior to going to school. I lived in apartment style dorms my first year in college and lived with a Palestinian in an enjoining apartment and he humanize the conflict for me. I wasn't best buddies with the guy but we talked occasionally. I asked him why they hated Americans. He told me they didn't hate American's they hated American policy. I could understand that point and my views changed that day.

Do me a favor, watch the videos of the Palestinian's dancing and cheering in the streets on 9/11. Then go read the Hamas charter that calls for the killing of every Jew...Hell, the Palestinian's have children shows that teach about martyrdom and the necessity of killing Jews.

No I don't think they should be "mowing the grass", I think they should turn that shit heap into glass.

 

[comrade-z]

So they are involved, but they aren't, but they are, and Israel is trying to divide the Palestinian gov't? How can it divide the gov't if Hamas isn't a part and Israel is attacking Hamas?

This issue in particular tends to bother me, that Hamas conveniently is responsible for some of the things that happen in Gaza, but not others. Like how they claim that they didn't give a *direct* order for the initial kidnappings of three Israeli kids, it was a rogue cell! But they are totally ok with kidnapping as a tactic in many other circumstances. Or that they give cells access to their rocket stores and rocket builders, but then when those cells fire into Israel during "peace" or ceasefires, Hamas claims they are part of a different group and that Hamas should not be held accountable. I don't think these sorts of things are exactly what you meant, but it is what came to mind for me.

Do me a favor, watch the videos of the Palestinian's dancing and cheering in the streets on 9/11. Then go read the Hamas charter that calls for the killing of every Jew...Hell, the Palestinian's have children shows that teach about martyrdom and the necessity of killing Jews.

Hamas occasionally tries to claim that the charter is just a piece of paper that cannot be changed for "internal reasons" (bullsh*t), but I agree that it is still relevant as their leadership still make such genocidal claims in their rhetoric and calls to action. They say that it isn't a call to genocide since they say it should translate to zionists, instead of jews, but genocide is genocide regardless of the geographic limitations.

And yes Scotth, the world has changed. Israel is a lot stronger, especially relatively to many of its neighbors than before. But that doesn't mean Iran is weak, or that they feel they can rely on their "friend" Syria to stop the spread of this undead relic of a caliphate that has expressed desire to wipe them out, or that worsening anti-semitism in Europe and elsewhere won't reach Israel or incur hate against non-Israeli Jews (too late, unfortunately, for this last one). So yeah, Israel does some dumb things, and some of those things are possibly unforgivable. But Israel is fighting for its survival; it has its head above water, but land in this analogy comes when the list of countries that refuse to recognize Israel and/or its right to exist is empty. Currently that list is 32 countries long.

 

[Polar Bear]

Please could someone point out Palastine on a map? I can't seem to find it.

 

[DA SWO]

It appears those "peace loving" people from Gaza were going to kill as many Jews as possible during Rosh Hashanah (sp?).

Why are we sending them money?

It seems to me that concrete could have been used to create infra-structure and not tunnels.
Make no mistake, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush also have blood on their hands.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/s...rgartens/?utm_referrer=http://t.co/gfhiduoxVz

 

[pardus]

It appears those "peace loving" people from Gaza were going to kill as many Jews as possible during Rosh Hashanah (sp?).

Why are we sending them money?

It seems to me that concrete could have been used to create infra-structure and not tunnels.
Make no mistake, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush also have blood on their hands.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/stories-from-the-battlefield-hamas-tunnels-used-to-target-israels-kindergartens/?utm_referrer=http://t.co/gfhiduoxVz

WOW, thank fuck the Israelis got to the tunnels before that plan could be carried out. That would be a bloody disaster.
Fucking Kerry is trying to stop Israel destroying the tunnels too? WTF is wrong with him?

 

[AWP]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/03/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

"We once again stress that Israel must do more to meet its own standards and avoid civilian casualties," spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in a written statement. "The suspicion that militants are operating nearby does not justify strikes that put at risk the lives of so many innocent civilians."

I guess Jen's never heard of Iraq or Afghanistan... I know! Night raids! Those limit civilian casual...Oh, those are banned too? So, what's left? Oh, talk to them? That's right, a sternly worded letter will do the trick!

Gah!

 

[Marauder06]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/03/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1



I guess Jen's never heard of Iraq or Afghanistan... I know! Night raids! Those limit civilian casual...Oh, those are banned too? So, what's left? Oh, talk to them? That's right, a sternly worded letter will do the trick!

Gah!

She ought to stick to hashtags and promoting her "smart, savvy, and fashionable" friends via State's official Twitter account.

 

[Scotth]

The world has changed. Islam has not.

and what country is a threat to Israel's existence much less Gaza?

If anyone was interested in tangling with Israel they haven't had enough provocation in the last 4 decades to act?

Look at Egypt. Everyone said with the turmoil there would spell disaster for Israel and they are working closer with Israel then any other middle east country.

Hamas, at least the military wing, are crazy. They really can't be dealt with at this time but when your killing thousands of Palestinians do you think your making them weaker or stronger?

 

[DA SWO]

and what country is a threat to Israel's existence much less Gaza?

If anyone was interested in tangling with Israel they haven't had enough provocation in the last 4 decades to act?

Look at Egypt. Everyone said with the turmoil there would spell disaster for Israel and they are working closer with Israel then any other middle east country.

Hamas, at least the military wing, are crazy. They really can't be dealt with at this time but when your killing thousands of Palestinians do you think your making them weaker or stronger?

Seriously?

The Muslim brotherhood allowed arms/ammo through Egypt into gaza, one of the many reasons the Egyptian Army booted their asses into jail cells.
Lot of tunnels from Egypt into Gaza while the Brotherhood was in power.

 

[JHD]

Posted very recently on the Conservative Tribune.

http://conservativetribune.com/no-point-negotiating-anymore/

 

[Marauder06]

and what country is a threat to Israel's existence much less Gaza?

If anyone was interested in tangling with Israel they haven't had enough provocation in the last 4 decades to act?

Look at Egypt. Everyone said with the turmoil there would spell disaster for Israel and they are working closer with Israel then any other middle east country.

Hamas, at least the military wing, are crazy. They really can't be dealt with at this time but when your killing thousands of Palestinians do you think your making them weaker or stronger?

Why are you bringing up countries, when I'm talking about ideology?

But OK fine. Which countries are a threat to Israel's existence? Iran, and every state that borders Israel.

The only things that kept and keep Israel from getting wiped off the map and its inhabitants pushed into the sea is Israel's military might, and the backing of the US. ALL of Israel's allies are a threat. Egypt is less of a threat... for now... because a military coup pushed out the Islamic Brotherhood, the ideological grandfather of Hamas. The current military junta is the ONLY thing that makes Egypt not a threat to Israel, and as we've seen, the political winds can change in an instant.

We shouldn't confuse capacity with intent. Most of Israel's neighbors would be quite happy if Israel were to cease to exist, and several of them are actively working to make that happen. Whether Hamas is an "existential" threat to Israel or not is both debatable and completely irrelevant. Hamas is a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel and actively attempts to murder its citizens. Israel SHOULD be targeting them.

With your last statement, you seem to be buying into the "we're creating more terrorists than we are killing" argument. I haven't seen any credible research that supports that assertion, either in Gaza or anywhere else.

 

[DA SWO]

Why are you bringing up countries, when I'm talking about ideology?

But OK fine. Which countries are a threat to Israel's existence? Iran, and every state that borders Israel.

The only things that kept and keep Israel from getting wiped off the map and its inhabitants pushed into the sea is Israel's military might, and the backing of the US. ALL of Israel's allies are a threat. Egypt is less of a threat... for now... because a military coup pushed out the Islamic Brotherhood, the ideological grandfather of Hamas. The current military junta is the ONLY thing that makes Egypt not a threat to Israel, and as we've seen, the political winds can change in an instant.

We shouldn't confuse capacity with intent. Most of Israel's neighbors would be quite happy if Israel were to cease to exist, and several of them are actively working to make that happen. Whether Hamas is an "existential" threat to Israel or not is both debatable and completely irrelevant. Hamas is a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel and actively attempts to murder its citizens. Israel SHOULD be targeting them.

With your last statement, you seem to be buying into the "we're creating more terrorists than we are killing" argument. I haven't seen any credible research that supports that assertion, either in Gaza or anywhere else.

Great points.
Ref The bold face part.

How would letting Hamas exist create fewer terrorists?

I'll answer it. It won't Hamas would (will) continue to grow recruit new members until they no longer exist as an organization.