Israel

SOWT said:
Seriously?

The Muslim brotherhood allowed arms/ammo through Egypt into gaza, one of the many reasons the Egyptian Army booted their asses into jail cells.
Lot of tunnels from Egypt into Gaza while the Brotherhood was in power.
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The point was about then and now and how we can overact and in the long term things can work out even if they don't look good to start out.
 
Marauder06 said:
Why are you bringing up countries, when I'm talking about ideology?

But OK fine. Which countries are a threat to Israel's existence? Iran, and every state that borders Israel.

The only things that kept and keep Israel from getting wiped off the map and its inhabitants pushed into the sea is Israel's military might, and the backing of the US. ALL of Israel's allies are a threat. Egypt is less of a threat... for now... because a military coup pushed out the Islamic Brotherhood, the ideological grandfather of Hamas. The current military junta is the ONLY thing that makes Egypt not a threat to Israel, and as we've seen, the political winds can change in an instant.

We shouldn't confuse capacity with intent. Most of Israel's neighbors would be quite happy if Israel were to cease to exist, and several of them are actively working to make that happen. Whether Hamas is an "existential" threat to Israel or not is both debatable and completely irrelevant. Hamas is a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel and actively attempts to murder its citizens. Israel SHOULD be targeting them.

With your last statement, you seem to be buying into the "we're creating more terrorists than we are killing" argument. I haven't seen any credible research that supports that assertion, either in Gaza or anywhere else.
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Thanks for your reasonable response and I enjoy a good debate.

While I agree with the majority of what you said it's kind of the point I was making. No countries in the region will tangle with Israel because of their overwhelming military strength and the support of the US and at the end of the day if you push Israel into a corner your country would be turned into a large country of glass for your effort. The only thing that threatens Israel at this point is the court of public opinion.

I completely agree with you on Egypt. Who would have thought a peace deal made in the 70's would still be in place today.

Do I have a study that supports we are creating more terrorist in Gaza then we are killing? I don't have a study but a half a century of history would support that assertion. You can also look at what happened in Lebanon as another example of where you can't kill your way out of a problem.

Just for argument sake lets say Israel can kill off Hamas. The death and destruction that would be needed to accomplish that, what does that look like? What does a country, created because of genocide. say about the killing and destruction they heaped on others? What happens in Gaza and who fills the void?

Does anyone envision Gaza running back to Fatah? What takes Hamas place?
 
Scotth said:
Thanks for your reasonable response and I enjoy a good debate.

While I agree with the majority of what you said it's kind of the point I was making. No countries in the region will tangle with Israel because of their overwhelming military strength and the support of the US and at the end of the day if you push Israel into a corner your country would be turned into a large country of glass for your effort. The only thing that threatens Israel at this point is the court of public opinion.

I completely agree with you on Egypt. Who would have thought a peace deal made in the 70's would still be in place today.

Do I have a study that supports we are creating more terrorist in Gaza then we are killing? I don't have a study but a half a century of history would support that assertion. You can also look at what happened in Lebanon as another example of where you can't kill your way out of a problem.

Just for argument sake lets say Israel can kill off Hamas. The death and destruction that would be needed to accomplish that, what does that look like? What does a country, created because of genocide. say about the killing and destruction they heaped on others? What happens in Gaza and who fills the void?

Does anyone envision Gaza running back to Fatah? What takes Hamas place?
Click to expand...

My Moderator hat is well and truly off, I want to make that very clear.

So killing terrorists is "genocide" is it? Your own country is guilty too if that's the case, unless of course you just want to admit you are being selective and that you are anti Jewish.

Not reasonable in your opinion? Tough. Frankly your point of view sickens me.
 
pardus said:
My Moderator hat is well and truly off, I want to make that very clear.

So killing terrorists is "genocide" is it? Your own country is guilty too if that's the case, unless of course you just want to admit you are being selective and that you are anti Jewish.

Not reasonable in your opinion? Tough. Frankly your point of view sickens me.
Click to expand...


Being a moderator shouldn't remove you from debate. If you want to suspend my account, not that I thought you or any other moderator were considering this, would be an issue. Disagreeing I would hope would always be fully acceptable.

Having said that. I would disagree that everyone killed was a terrorist and at best 70% are civilian by most estimates. While I understand urban combat and innocent causalities will happen, how many times do you have to bomb a UN facility before you say WTF?

Criticizing Israel policy doesn't make you anti Jewish, that is a very simplistic argument that hold no water. Just like criticizing Israel doesn't mean we don't think Israel has a right to exist. Things tend to be a little more complicated then that.

How do you see this things ending? Do you think this thing ends with Israel exterminating the Palestinians?
 
Scotth said:
Thanks for your reasonable response and I enjoy a good debate.

Do I have a study that supports we are creating more terrorist in Gaza then we are killing? I don't have a study but a half a century of history would support that assertion. You can also look at what happened in Lebanon as another example of where you can't kill your way out of a problem.

Just for argument sake lets say Israel can kill off Hamas. The death and destruction that would be needed to accomplish that, what does that look like? What does a country, created because of genocide. say about the killing and destruction they heaped on others? What happens in Gaza and who fills the void?

Does anyone envision Gaza running back to Fatah? What takes Hamas place?
Click to expand...

First, the idea that the U.S, Israel, or any other Nation "creates terrorists" is ridiculous to me. I understand it in theory, and it would seem to make sense, except that these factions are created and bent on our destruction independent of what "we" or Israel do. A large portion of these individuals cannot read or write, they sell their lives cheap because they have no real opportunity or alternative. They do whatever their "leaders" tell them because...well, they're fucking illiterate, inbred dirt-farmers. They are raised and indoctrinated to hate Israel. If Israel decides that their bombing has too great an impact on the "civilian" (what a fucking joke) population, it won't matter. Religious fundamentalists are bent on the destruction of Israel, PERIOD.

If Israel kills off Hamas then something (insert another fuck-face faction) will spring up to "kill the Zionists", at that point Israel can spend the next thirty years eradicating those fools too.

My hope is that "the Zionists" continue their bombing campaign at their leisure. If Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or any other terrorists organization decides to hide weapons or dig tunnels under a school, make a mass grave out of it. If they decide that hospitals or UN shelters are a fun spot to launch rockets from, hello...another fucking barbecue in the city tonight. These organizations are being supported and hidden by the "civilian" population, who receive cement and materials for schools...ah, fuck it, build tunnels instead. If you lobe rockets over a wall expect to be met with them in return, and if you and your elected terrorist officials plan of action is to cry and whine to the International community and pray for Muhammed to return with his flaming sword, then pucker up buttercup.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
 
Scotth said:
Being a moderator shouldn't remove you from debate. If you want to suspend my account, not that I thought you or any other moderator were considering this, would be an issue. Disagreeing I would hope would always be fully acceptable.

Having said that. I would disagree that everyone killed was a terrorist and at best 70% are civilian by most estimates. While I understand urban combat and innocent causalities will happen, how many times do you have to bomb a UN facility before you say WTF?

Criticizing Israel policy doesn't make you anti Jewish, that is a very simplistic argument that hold no water. Just like criticizing Israel doesn't mean we don't think Israel has a right to exist. Things tend to be a little more complicated then that.

How do you see this things ending? Do you think this thing ends with Israel exterminating the Palestinians?
Click to expand...
Those UN facilities were used as weapons storage depots.
When discovered, the Un gave the weapons to hamas instead of destroying them.
That makes those facilities a legitimate target.
 
Scotth said:
Being a moderator shouldn't remove you from debate. If you want to suspend my account, not that I thought you or any other moderator were considering this, would be an issue. Disagreeing I would hope would always be fully acceptable.

Having said that. I would disagree that everyone killed was a terrorist and at best 70% are civilian by most estimates. While I understand urban combat and innocent causalities will happen, how many times do you have to bomb a UN facility before you say WTF?

Criticizing Israel policy doesn't make you anti Jewish, that is a very simplistic argument that hold no water. Just like criticizing Israel doesn't mean we don't think Israel has a right to exist. Things tend to be a little more complicated then that.

How do you see this things ending? Do you think this thing ends with Israel exterminating the Palestinians?
Click to expand...

Geez Scott,

1. Grow up. You're a decent debater. No ones going to kill you off for your POV.

2. Get your facts straight before you throw a blanket comment out there. (Which is the exact kind of rhetoric un informed individuals all over are falling for)

We all know (As does Israel) what it can engage and what it cannot. It also knows when it can engage what it could not. Hidden caches of rockets have been discovered at three U.N. schools in Gaza since the conflict began, and the refugee agency has accused unnamed groups of putting civilians at risk. Not to mention 100's of other locations putting civilians at risk. But remember, according to Hilary, the only reason they do that is because Gaza is so small and they don't really have any place else to put them.....(I about fell out of my fucking chair when I listened to her actually state this) Cowards hide behind non combatants and sacred sites and score a win win whenever they do so and are then attacked.

How? HAMAS knows it doesn't have a chance in hell going against Israel head to head. So, how is it really waging its war? Through the MEDIA. And so far, they're kicking ass and taking names. If you think terrorists only fight in a one dimensional train of thought (Just kill everyone and that's it) they learned the play book of how things play out in the court of public opinion back when the bush began to burn.....

Not to mention, it's also here. Bibi doesn't doesn't care about appeasing our president, who BTW, hasn't got a clue when it comes to the hard line of survival, day in and day out when everyone on all sides in their region wants them exterminated and has since their existence. So, then you get the mantra of "Big bad Israel is picking on our president" train of thought, because Netanyahu isn't going to take any shit when it comes to the survival of his country. Hollywood goes ballistic first and the rest of the brainless population (Including members of congress) do as well.

Arrogant? You're damn right he is. Within reason? Given the current scope and situation - absolutely. I'd go even further to say "determined" is a better term.

Proper knowledge and information have nothing to do with this. It's how things are perceived rather than reality. And unfortunately, whatever's popular nowadays, is what the che gevara generation will line up with. It's always hip to be with the "in" crowd. :rolleyes:
 
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Scotth said:
Being a moderator shouldn't remove you from debate. If you want to suspend my account, not that I thought you or any other moderator were considering this, would be an issue. Disagreeing I would hope would always be fully acceptable.

Having said that. I would disagree that everyone killed was a terrorist and at best 70% are civilian by most estimates. While I understand urban combat and innocent causalities will happen, how many times do you have to bomb a UN facility before you say WTF?

Criticizing Israel policy doesn't make you anti Jewish, that is a very simplistic argument that hold no water. Just like criticizing Israel doesn't mean we don't think Israel has a right to exist. Things tend to be a little more complicated then that.

How do you see this things ending? Do you think this thing ends with Israel exterminating the Palestinians?
Click to expand...

Disagreeing and debate are always welcomed here, but in light of my previous post that was edited, I wanted to make it perfectly clear that I'm speaking as an individual and not as a moderator.

Yes civilians are being killed, that sucks but it happens. Israel is going to ridiculous lengths to ensure this doesn't happen, further than anyone including us has ever gone before, and what thanks do they get for that? Do you think Hamas is acting in kind?
Fuck the UN, they are as guilty as anybody, and as others have stated, their facilities are being used by the terrorists thus making them legitimate targets.
Criticizing Israeli policy that defends them against slaughter is hard to see as anything but someone advocating another genocide of the Jews. Is that what you want? Because that's what your terrorist apologist views will lead to in short order.
Israel is too constrained by world opinion and it's own humanitarian views to wipe out the Palestinians, like I said earlier, Israel should have pushed them out of Gaza years ago.

Why is it that people like you can't see that this is being perpetrated by terrorists, terrorists who continue to kill and attack, and your solution is for the attacked and threatened to roll over because they are stronger?
 
CQB said:
I think it's the Hamas spokesmans' opinion that Israel failed. When you've had an attack thwarted, materiel confiscated etc. in my opinion Hamas failed.
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I agree. But, in their way of thinking...they still exist...so they are still winning. The made Israel expend time, money, and lives while still being unable to eradicate them.

Hamas is winning...just ask them.

With them it isn't necessarily numbers...but, a mindset.
 
I'm reminded now and then of the Irish. From 1968-98 they were at each other's throats, they decided to put that behind them and move on which brought both north & south a new prosperity. What if one day Palestine woke up and realised they lost years ago.
But Hamas will continue to try, Israel will continue to defend. Until Hamas tears up its charter it will continue as before. They're too busy being supremacist idiots to consider the welfare of their people.
 
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033

The video with the story is worth watching.

Gaza: In the minutes before the ceasefire kicked in at Gaza this morning, Hamas fired a flurry of rockets towards Israel - 30 according to some counts.

Israel has argued that that these rockets are fired from civilian areas, and this is why its retaliatory strikes can result in civilian casualties.

But this morning, NDTV witnessed one such rocket silo being created under a tent right next to the hotel where our team was staying. Minutes later, we saw the rocket being fired, just before the 72-hour ceasefire came into effect.
Click to expand...
 
I don't know how to put this in a nice way, but our citizens (and I mean especially in Europe), the 'masses', are -- by and large -- fucking 'tards. They don't grasp issues such as cause and effect. All they see are 'civilians' being killed. Forget the fact that a large portion of those 'civilian' casualty figures are actually Hamas fighters (though our media would never doubt reports supplied to them by Gaza's pro-Hamas medical authorities) -- as evidenced by the statistically disproportionate amount of fighting age males within the casualties. Or the fact that Hamas pulled this same trick last time, only to have later been forced to admit that many of the civilian casualties were actually their fighters. And let's not mention that a lot of those civilians are sympathetic to the Hamas cause (essentially being enablers, willing to be martyred). Nope, they're just 100% innocent civilians being killed; my god, that's horrible, how could Israel be so indiscriminate in killing so many innocent people?! :rolleyes:
 
Very well done ^

I just don't know why people don't understand this simple truth.
When I see the propaganda and false anger coming coming from the terrorist side i just roll my eyes at how simplistic and juvenile their psychological methods are... Then I look around and see people buying into it, and frankly it stuns me, stuns me and makes me realise that we are on the tipping point as a society (Western) of failure.
We either stand up to terrorism and it's supporters or say goodbye to the freedom we currently have.
 
pardus said:
Very well done ^

I just don't know why people don't understand this simple truth.
When I see the propaganda and false anger coming coming from the terrorist side i just roll my eyes at how simplistic and juvenile their psychological methods are... Then I look around and see people buying into it, and frankly it stuns me, stuns me and makes me realise that we are on the tipping point as a society (Western) of failure.
We either stand up to terrorism and it's supporters or say goodbye to the freedom we currently have.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I don't think it'll get better from here on. Only worse.

Anyone want to start a fund to create an artificial island somewhere and start a new country -- invitation only?
 

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