JTAC capability within an SF ODA

[BrassOverBolt]

Do any personnel in the 18E MOS have JTAC Qualifications? If not, is JTAC as a capability, organic to an SF ODA within any MOS? Or is that skill-set just on loan from other services personnel such as TACP or CCT?

I appreciate any responses from QPs or otherwise.

-E.B.

NOTE: Obviously, if this question is in violation of OPSEC, Please disregard.

 

[CDG]

Depends. Could be any combination. Why do you want to know?

 

[DA SWO]

Do any personnel in the 18E MOS have JTAC Qualifications? If not, is JTAC as a capability, organic to an SF ODA within any MOS? Or is that skill-set just on loan from other services personnel such as TACP or CCT?

I appreciate any responses from QPs or otherwise.

-E.B.

NOTE: Obviously, if this question is in violation of OPSEC, Please disregard.

Yes.

 

[TLDR20]

I don't think there is any reason to be evasive.

Do you want to be a Special Forces Soldier or a JTAC? If you only want to do one for the other, you should do the other.

18 series can and do become JTACS.

 

[BrassOverBolt]

Understood.
TLDR20 you hit the nail on the head...
CDG, I have considered both CCT and SF as options and wanted to know if they both shared that capability
I understand that I should choose a path based on unit mission/goals and not just get caught up on potential skill-sets.

-E.B.

 

[surgicalcric]

EB:

Being a JTAC is an extra skill and responsibility placed on the list of many others because JTACs are few. Most JTAC qual'd SF guys I know would rather leave the dropping of bombs and controlling aircraft to those who do it as their primary mission.

If you want to be an SF soldier work towards that goal, if you want to control aircraft and drop ordinance then be a CCT but being the former in order to do the latter shows evidence of a poor decision making matrix.

 

[CDG]

Understood.
TLDR20 you hit the nail on the head...
CDG, I have considered both CCT and SF as options and wanted to know if they both shared that capability
I understand that I should choose a path based on unit mission/goals and not just get caught up on potential skill-sets.

-E.B.

I wasn't attempting to be evasive. It really can be any combo of what you asked. If you are interested in being a JTAC, then TACP is your best option. Not every CCT gets JTAC, and they are falling off of that mission and back to their original one right now. So, a lot of CCTs and some SF guys get JTAC, but not all and it is not a primary duty. The whole purpose of the TACP careerfield is to be a JTAC. All about what your primary goal is.

 

[BrassOverBolt]

CDG, thank you for the clarification.

 

[pm410]

I don't know if anyone would be familiar with this, but I heard that they're looking to implement JTAC training for senior 13F's, and that JFO will be taught in 13F AIT. The argument being that there aren't enough AF JTACs to go around for conventional infantry units.

 

[CDG]

There aren't enough of us anywhere. "Implement JTAC training" could mean a lot of things. We train on a shitload of stuff. Are you saying that you've heard senior 13F's will become JTACs? The Army has wanted to do this for a long time but it will never happen in any meaningful way, for a variety of reasons.

 

[pm410]

Yes I heard senior 13f becoming JTACS .. Why could it never happen, training pipeline to complex or long? I'm not all that familiar with it.

 

[CDG]

Yes I heard senior 13f becoming JTACS .. Why could it never happen, training pipeline to complex or long? I'm not all that familiar with it.

In a nutshell, it's logistically unfeasible, there are concerns with 13Fs being browbeaten by their commanders into poor decisions, the conventional Army doesn't fully understand what it takes to be a JTAC and judging by the time they allow their JFOs to train, they will never sustain a viable product, and USAF pilots have voiced opposition to the idea.

 

[DA SWO]

In a nutshell, it's logistically unfeasible, there are concerns with 13Fs being browbeaten by their commanders into poor decisions, the conventional Army doesn't fully understand what it takes to be a JTAC and judging by the time they allow their JFOs to train, they will never sustain a viable product, and USAF pilots have voiced opposition to the idea.

# of sorties available for JTAC training is limited.
The Army would have to hire contract air to fly training sorties and that will drive the cost up significantly.

 

[AWP]

I think we had a member here, a former instructor at the SOF JTAC course out west, once comment that the AF was not at all happy with the SOF course A) because they are Army and B) I want to say he even cited the course's duration.

Having watched the Army and AF go at it in Afghanistan I can easily see Big Blue's vehement opposition to a 13F to JTAC process. I don't know enough to have a solution, even by Internet standards, but I'd think the Army would be better served spending political capital on a different solution instead of "We'll just do your job."

 

[CDG]

The issue a lot of guys take with the JTAC course is the lack of airspace control that it has. Being able to spit 5-lines or 9-lines does not a JTAC make. At least not a good one. There's a lot more to it than that. Honestly, it's much more difficult to control for conventional forces than it is SOF. With SOF, you just throw up a fucking 10km ROZ and call it a day. With conventional, you're trying to deconflict with up to 4 other JTACs, plues keep your a/c safe from threats, meet the GCs intent, maximize effects, not waste the pilot's time, etc. It's a lot more work.

The Army is pushing to add an 18J MOS to the SF community, and that MOS would be JTAC. So they would have their own guys. They dislike relying on us to provide that capability because we're not always available.

The Army, I think, wants JTACs they can more easily control. They don't like it when a SrA JTAC tells a Captain or a Major, "No, Sir, we're not going to do that."

 

[DA SWO]

The issue a lot of guys take with the JTAC course is the lack of airspace control that it has. Being able to spit 5-lines or 9-lines does not a JTAC make. At least not a good one. There's a lot more to it than that. Honestly, it's much more difficult to control for conventional forces than it is SOF. With SOF, you just throw up a fucking 10km ROZ and call it a day. With conventional, you're trying to deconflict with up to 4 other JTACs, plues keep your a/c safe from threats, meet the GCs intent, maximize effects, not waste the pilot's time, etc. It's a lot more work.

The Army is pushing to add an 18J MOS to the SF community, and that MOS would be JTAC. So they would have their own guys. They dislike relying on us to provide that capability because we're not always available.

The Army, I think, wants JTACs they can more easily control. They don't like it when a SrA JTAC tells a Captain or a Major, "No, Sir, we're not going to do that."

........and will gleefully court martial one of their own who says that, or has a bad drop killing the wrong people.

 

[CDG]

........and will gleefully court martial one of their own who says that, or has a bad drop killing the wrong people.

Yep. Most guys have stories of having to request to go somewhere else after refusing to control a bad drop and being left behind on subsequent missions because the GFC didn't like being told he was wrong.

 

[pm410]

CDG, exactly was the purpose of implementing the JFO program? From everything I have read this far on it, it doesn't allow you to do anything more once you've completed it.

 

[CDG]

JFOs are able to control artillery strikes, helicopters (anyone can use Army helos but JFOs have more training), and are better trained on CAS than the average soldier. They provide a valuable tool for a JTAC to be able to build a 360 degree picture of the battlefield. Oftentimes we can't see everything. Having a JFO on another mountainside, or in another OP, to feed us targeting info can greatly assist in the timely execution of CAS. A good JFO can really help lighten the workload on a JTAC. And in emergency situations, if no JTAC is present or available, having a JFO on the ground can help the pilot feel a little more comfortable about dropping.

 

[Red-Dot]

The JFO is a great program and skill set to have if used correctly. We had some of the initial graduates of this course in OIF. They were, let's say a little over zealous and over stepped their bounds. Our ALO who was a LTC, quickly shut that down.

CDG is correct. The Army wants dudes they can keep under thumb, to say. I have seen SRA and SSGT's tell CPT's and MAJ's they are ate up (in a tactful way) and need to leave the CAS to the experts.