Do enables have an assessment and selection?
MARSOC Badge
- Thread starter brokenjar03
- Start date
Some do and receive a different MOS if I recall right. We have a few of them on the board, so I'll let them fill in any blanks.
I don't have a problem with MARSOC getting a badge. I think that particular badge is fairly gaudy. I've always liked my gold wings and dive bubble, which honestly I don't wear very often. This badge is somewhat disingenuous though because while the insignia incorporates diving and parachuting aspects into the badge, an ITC graduate does not graduate with those qualifications and may never become a diver. This would be further compounded if they grant this badge to all MARSOC Marines, which to me is just bizarre, and you have a Special Operations Truck Driver [aka the MARSOC SgtMaj] running around with this huge jump-dive-rifle-skull smorgasboard when all he's qualified to do is color within the lines and put foot to gas pedal.
Agree 100%.
Not my lane, but I'll drive through anyway.
Making a badge is great, as long as it represents the skillset shared by 100% of the CSO's.
I am willing to bet a non-dive qualified guy (Marine) will be a wee-bit embarrassed wearing a badge that gives the impression he is dive qualified.
brokenjar03
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It is interesting how OAF has not had a follow-up on the issue since May. It's also interesting they're the only ones who've reported on it. I can only hope it's in the design shop, and being redeveloped to represent the skill-set of all CSO's appropriately. They deserve to be distinguished amongst peers.
The MARSOC arrowhead would be a great alternative.
The MARSOC arrowhead would be a great alternative.
After having worked closely with other SOF units, I recognize the importance of a distinguishing device so people know who they are dealing with. It makes a difference in the eyes of operators when you see that badge, trident or tab. It grants some immediate credibility, unless the operator in question proves otherwise through words or actions. Personally, I feel that the current wings and bubble already fills the requirement adequately. The only problem is when you have a CSO who is a subject matter expert on a particular topic, yet has no insert schools. If he were briefing a mixture of operators from across SOCOM, would his opinions or thoughts be discounted because he didn't have a badge? I doubt it. So long as he conducted himself in a professional manner and knew his shit, the others would listen.
The badge in the photo, or one of similar design, only makes sense if Basic Airborne, Freefall and Combatant Dive become part of the existing ITC pipeline. That is not likely to happen any time soon due to the sheer time frame associated. ITC plus language and insert schools equates to over two years in a pipeline before you have a deployable operator. That's not even counting the recruiting and Assessment & Selection process.
The badge in the photo, or one of similar design, only makes sense if Basic Airborne, Freefall and Combatant Dive become part of the existing ITC pipeline. That is not likely to happen any time soon due to the sheer time frame associated. ITC plus language and insert schools equates to over two years in a pipeline before you have a deployable operator. That's not even counting the recruiting and Assessment & Selection process.
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Which is something other SOF organizations already do. I'm sure you're well aware of that, but I state it to frame my follow-on: What is the likelihood of MARSOC/ the Marine Corps being "flexible" (for lack of a better word) enough to rethink the entry pipeline in 2-3 years after MARSOC's matured/ been around a bit longer? As an outsider even I know the USMC isn't keen on change or individuality and MARSOC has already bucked a lot of trends in a short period of time: a new MOS, possible/ probable Officer stability within the command, reclaiming the "Raider" heritage, potentially the badge...that's a lot of political capital where the parent organization is probably grinding its teeth. On top of that, would you or the organization rather send a guy off to an insertion school after they've arrived or have them check into the unit with that school already acquired? If the need for a school is there and it can be added to the pipeline, then why not include the school?
I never once saw a Ranger wear a scroll or tab overseas and I'm pretty sure it's not permitted. I always thought it odd seeing tridents and SF patches in that environment. Pretty sure the JSOC guys didn't feel a need to wear some badge either.
Of course, we have always wished for a complete pipeline in which operators receive not only basic training in special operations, but also insert schools. I feel that other SOF organizations are large enough, and have enough operators, to be able to afford a really long pipeline. MARSOC has only about 700+ operators, and we represent only about 5% of SOCOM as a whole. The bottom line is, a MARSOC operator doesn't require the ability to jump and dive in order to be good at his job. Please understand, I'm not defending the lack of a pipeline. I would love to see it, but I also understand why it hasn't been put into place yet. To build on some of the things you said, I have seen some dramatic improvements in the past few years. Namely, the addition of language onto the end of ITC, and a closed career loop for Special Operations Officers. Of course, the officer thing brings other issues with it, but I'm sure there is another thread for that.
Why not just add basic airborne to the pipe and have evryone with one stndard insert school coming out of training?
The other thing about this badge is that it is really just a recon jack of all trades (referred to as the recon jack) that most recon guys have tattooed on their bodies somewhere with a spade behind it. I know there are a lot of recon guys in MARSOC but recon still exists in the Marine Corps and MARSOC shouldn't just bogart the recon jack and give it to non-Recon Marines.
Not that anyone cares, but I think the badge would look better, and probably meet less resistance, if it was simpler. Something like a smaller spade with the fairbairn-sykes dagger in the middle with some wings coming off the spade since every CSO will be jump qualified shortly after finishing ITC. Also, I think it's really cool but I'm not sure the Marine Corps is going to get behind a badge with a skull on it.
The Marine Corps is very resistant to badges. Almost all of the badges we have are actually Naval badges that both services recognize. That's why we have jump/dive. It was hard enough to get a different badge for Marine Combatant Dive school and even that is in use for both the Navy and Marine Corps if you go to the school (Marine Combatant Dive school is a joint course and all services may attend. I had 5 CCTs in my dive school class).
MARSOC has been trying to push a lot of stuff forward lately. The officer MOS and this badge were on top of the list. If I was MARSOC, I'd be more worried about my survival as a community. Right now the entire Marine Corps is paranoid about its survival. Which honestly is something we always struggle with but it holds especially true now in this era of budget cuts and personnel reductions. A lot of guys with stars on their collars are freaking out over keeping the Marine Corps alive right now and my recommendation to MARSOC (and all Marines) is not to rock the boat right now or someone may push you overboard. Remember that MARSOC is largely funded and fed by the Marine Corps, the coupon cutting military service in the DOD that reuses ziploc bags, eats the generic brand breakfast cereals and gets hand me downs from their sister services. SOCOM gives MARSOC some money but Mommy Marine Corps pays the bulk of it.
Let's also not forget that the Marine Corps secretly hates MARSOC and recon because it's a constant reminder that while all Marines are elite and special, some Marines are a bit more elite and special than others. This badge debate would not be an issue in any other service but will create visceral reactions at HQMC by straight leg infantry officers who don't like anyone who isn't doesn't shave the sides of their heads in the morning. Like I've said before, the Marine part of Marine Special Operations is both the best and worst part of MARSOC. Great on the operator level, less than ideal the higher in the chain you go unfortunately. MARSOC has gotten several victories recently, all of which are going to aggravate Mother Marine Corps. The tie back to the Raiders, the officer primary MOS and now this badge are things that General Amos has blessed off on (except the badge so far) as he went out the door. Don't mistake one General's actions for HQMC acceptance. Call me a cynic but I think there are a lot of high ranking Marines holding knives waiting for an opportunity to thrust them into MARSOC's collective back.
Not that anyone cares, but I think the badge would look better, and probably meet less resistance, if it was simpler. Something like a smaller spade with the fairbairn-sykes dagger in the middle with some wings coming off the spade since every CSO will be jump qualified shortly after finishing ITC. Also, I think it's really cool but I'm not sure the Marine Corps is going to get behind a badge with a skull on it.
The Marine Corps is very resistant to badges. Almost all of the badges we have are actually Naval badges that both services recognize. That's why we have jump/dive. It was hard enough to get a different badge for Marine Combatant Dive school and even that is in use for both the Navy and Marine Corps if you go to the school (Marine Combatant Dive school is a joint course and all services may attend. I had 5 CCTs in my dive school class).
MARSOC has been trying to push a lot of stuff forward lately. The officer MOS and this badge were on top of the list. If I was MARSOC, I'd be more worried about my survival as a community. Right now the entire Marine Corps is paranoid about its survival. Which honestly is something we always struggle with but it holds especially true now in this era of budget cuts and personnel reductions. A lot of guys with stars on their collars are freaking out over keeping the Marine Corps alive right now and my recommendation to MARSOC (and all Marines) is not to rock the boat right now or someone may push you overboard. Remember that MARSOC is largely funded and fed by the Marine Corps, the coupon cutting military service in the DOD that reuses ziploc bags, eats the generic brand breakfast cereals and gets hand me downs from their sister services. SOCOM gives MARSOC some money but Mommy Marine Corps pays the bulk of it.
Let's also not forget that the Marine Corps secretly hates MARSOC and recon because it's a constant reminder that while all Marines are elite and special, some Marines are a bit more elite and special than others. This badge debate would not be an issue in any other service but will create visceral reactions at HQMC by straight leg infantry officers who don't like anyone who isn't doesn't shave the sides of their heads in the morning. Like I've said before, the Marine part of Marine Special Operations is both the best and worst part of MARSOC. Great on the operator level, less than ideal the higher in the chain you go unfortunately. MARSOC has gotten several victories recently, all of which are going to aggravate Mother Marine Corps. The tie back to the Raiders, the officer primary MOS and now this badge are things that General Amos has blessed off on (except the badge so far) as he went out the door. Don't mistake one General's actions for HQMC acceptance. Call me a cynic but I think there are a lot of high ranking Marines holding knives waiting for an opportunity to thrust them into MARSOC's collective back.
It is my understanding that Basic Airborne is in the works for ITC. It has been on the table for some time now. This is purely speculation on my part, but I can guess at what one of the hold ups might be. It may come down to quotas. MARSOC would have to work out a deal with the Army in order to get an allotment of annual quotas sufficient enough to send every ITC graduate. If MARSOC takes that many quotas, where does that leave other Marine Corps units like Recon or Air Delivery that require a jump capability? Teufel may be able to speak more intelligently on this than I.
Honestly, it comes down to this. The Raider battalions are going to be much more efficient and proactive in securing Airborne quotas for their Marines than any HQ element, MARSOC or otherwise. The quotas exist to send all their Marines to airborne but we don't have the capability to surge an entire ITC class at once. The SEALs worked through this by creating their own jump/freefall school. They got the Army to bless off on this because the SEALs have a lot of pull in SOCOM. The Marine Corps? Not so much. We will always have to depend on the Basic Airborne Course at Benning for basic jump qualifications and we will never have the priority for quotas there. It's just easier to let the Raider, Recon and other jump units manage their own training pipelines according to their requirements. If we create a pipeline that add airborne to ITC, you will have a lot of students standing around waiting to go to Benning. Better that they spend that time at a Raider battalion getting some solid NCO leadership and mentorship. They've tried to create a pipeline with BRC and the only traction that has received is with Marines heading to Okinawa.
HQMC has an ugly rear end. It always seems to show itself when some field grade officer gets a little sand in the clit (sorry ladies) and cannot accept the fact that there are commands in the Corps that deserve a little special attention. It's funny how much MarSoc is hated, yet at the same time used as a heavy recruitment tool. You can't have it both ways. This back and forth attitude of you aren't special, okay now you are, but really you aren't is eventually going to hurt MarSoc and FMF. This was evident in the creation of the 4th MEB. Quick to want to be ahead of the curve but then not really serve a true mission because of politics and shitty leadership. Those same shitty leaders went on to MarSoc and helped fuel some of that same fire. I'm a proud former Marine, but I'll de damned if there isn't times were I wish I could take a butt stock and place it where the sun don't shine in hopes they unfuck themselves.
Ultimately, everyone in SOF wants their respective pipelines to be "better", and their selections to be "harder". As a Ranger, the length of our pipeline has always been a gripe. SF wants MFF in their pipeline. NSW wants language. PJ's want more hair styling training. It's never ending.
Ultimately, the solution that will never happen, is that there is a joint SOF selection and training course, with each OTC being tailored to the unit they are trying out for. All in the same location, with jump/dive/SERE/language, etc. available. It would be a huge pain in the ass to actually execute, but once in place it would solve all the issues. Plus make the joint environment, more "joint".
Ultimately, the solution that will never happen, is that there is a joint SOF selection and training course, with each OTC being tailored to the unit they are trying out for. All in the same location, with jump/dive/SERE/language, etc. available. It would be a huge pain in the ass to actually execute, but once in place it would solve all the issues. Plus make the joint environment, more "joint".
The services could take a small step (I believe the AF is headed that way) by making the initial school co-located, and doing all the common tasks at that location.
The Army's problem (IMO) is the diverse nature of their SOF units. The core ranger mission is different then the core CA/Psyop/SF mission. There is some overlap that could be exploited for a common Phase I school.
Frosted...
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