Devildoc
Verified Military
No More Bread and Water: U.S. Navy Scraps an Age-Old Penalty
Never that unfortunate, but wish I had the option a time or two....
Never that unfortunate, but wish I had the option a time or two....
Navy deep-6s bread and water punishment...
- Thread starter Devildoc
- Start date
Keel-hauling, flogging at the grating, kissing the gunner's daughter, watch-on-watch, hanging from the yardarm, flogging around the fleet...all very effective punishment options if they care to bring them back.
NorCal88
Verified Military
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2014
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I think the effectiveness is not just short term but, long term as well.
You ask most people down the road who are staring promtion or reenistment in the face with negative paperwork and they might wish they had some sort of quick punishment like this.
They do mention this in the article, it does sometimes suck that leadership is quick to react with administive paperwork that winds up exacerbating the problem. You can bounce back from an NJP, it just means you have to work that much harder. I heard CCU was potentially rearing it’s head again... [GROUP=][/GROUP]
You ask most people down the road who are staring promtion or reenistment in the face with negative paperwork and they might wish they had some sort of quick punishment like this.
They do mention this in the article, it does sometimes suck that leadership is quick to react with administive paperwork that winds up exacerbating the problem. You can bounce back from an NJP, it just means you have to work that much harder. I heard CCU was potentially rearing it’s head again... [GROUP=][/GROUP]
Devildoc
Verified Military
I got NJP/page 13, it did cost me one promotion, but not the subsequent ones. I had my fingers crossed when I put in a package for my commission, and apparently it wasn't egregious enough to stop me from being commissioned. I wish I had the bread and water (or something else) and just got it over with.
A harsh, but short term penalty, or a soft, but long term penalty?
Some people need a slap or two before they sort out their lives. I did. The smart ones recover. The dull...retail awaits. Dispassionately, we all have the same options. How we react is upon the individual.
Some people need a slap or two before they sort out their lives. I did. The smart ones recover. The dull...retail awaits. Dispassionately, we all have the same options. How we react is upon the individual.
Being in the Army and not the Navy, I never put anyone on bread and water. But I think you can get just as much accomplished with a summarized Article 15 and some extra duty, and have something to show for it at the end, than you can with putting people on bread and water. Having this on the books is either representative of something antiquated and no longer used, in which case we don't need it, or it's multiple lawsuits waiting to happen, in which case we don't need it. So, either way, we don't need it. Put those Sailors on scraping barnacles or chipping paint or whatever the Navy equivalent of painting the rocks around the company area is, and put this punishment in the past where it belongs.
"I found the Walk of Atonement to be an effective NJP" -- Septa Unella
Devildoc
Verified Military
I am ambivalent with bread & water. I see your points, and don't disagree, but it's not as if you starve on bread & water. The Navy is perhaps the most hidebound to anachronisms and traditions, maybe barely just worse than the Marine Corps (given that it is also a sea service). But I totally agree that extra duty/something "character building" could be a good alternative. I also agree that the commanders need that something special to "encourage" sailors (soldiers, Marines, whomever) to make better choices without going overboard into putting them fully into the slippery slope of the heavy hammer of the UCMJ and screwing their careers and lives.
14 & 14 with some one on one supervised extra duty (not just a shit detail) with a squared away NCO, works wonders for straightening out a young problem child. Sometimes you have to just spend a few days one on one, explaining the bigger picture and how the game works.
That said, I wouldn't do well with one of my soldiers being put on a water and bread restriction. I would probably get my ass in trouble sneaking them food, I'm not about to demand discipline and their best performance, or else I'll starve you. That's counter productive to the bond I need to build, to get that kid to bound towards incoming gunfire, or go through a door.
A lot of times we forget, the kid is being yeld at all day, he is brand new doesn't know how the system works, first time away from home, being asked and forced to do things they don't want to, treated like a 5year old. It's only human nature to want to resist that, to be angry, or to go full retard anytime you have personal time. A little compassion and heart to heart can do wonders in that situation.
Of course there are also times where you just have to put your rank on the line and put a boot in someone ass. Some hard heads only learn through finding out who the alpha male really is. I've got no problem with that either... but I'd probably be going to prison if I was serving in today's Army.
That said, I wouldn't do well with one of my soldiers being put on a water and bread restriction. I would probably get my ass in trouble sneaking them food, I'm not about to demand discipline and their best performance, or else I'll starve you. That's counter productive to the bond I need to build, to get that kid to bound towards incoming gunfire, or go through a door.
A lot of times we forget, the kid is being yeld at all day, he is brand new doesn't know how the system works, first time away from home, being asked and forced to do things they don't want to, treated like a 5year old. It's only human nature to want to resist that, to be angry, or to go full retard anytime you have personal time. A little compassion and heart to heart can do wonders in that situation.
Of course there are also times where you just have to put your rank on the line and put a boot in someone ass. Some hard heads only learn through finding out who the alpha male really is. I've got no problem with that either... but I'd probably be going to prison if I was serving in today's Army.
Devildoc
Verified Military
I don't disagree with your points, but want to point out a couple caveats re: B&W: First, you have to medically cleared. Second, it's all-you-can-eat bread, so no starvation. I'm thinking Olive Garden without the pasta and salad. Third, it can be supplemented with vitamins.
But I also think you make a point that others (@Grunt , @Marauder06 , et al.) have made: personalize and customize punishment. It's a healthy sign of good leadership to be able to put a boot in the ass and have the fatherly chat, and know when to employ each. In my own case--I don't mind using me as an example--I wasn't very cool with a very green O1, called him and his mother some un-cool names, and came very close to striking him. I knew as I was doing it I was going to be in trouble. I expected the brig; I got a dress-down by my LPO and platoon sgt, and the fatherly chat by my OIC. I was sincerely contrite, and I wrote a letter of apology. The second LT wasn't a bad guy, he was just a moron, and I was way out of line. I got 90/90 (90 days reduced rate and reduced pay). I got better than I deserved, but my leadership was fair, and they saw good in me.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
When I entered the service we still had a lot of NCOs who'd entered the Army in the mid to early 90s and they talked about confinement centers and what extra duty used to be and how those punches in the mouth save them. Now, guys on 45/45 show up for extra duty with nothing to do once the shred box is complete. There's no hard labor anymore...interestingly Bliss had a federal detention center on post, I could see it from my office when I was the Squadron S1. When I got to the troop at Bliss they were processing a guy out who'd just spent three months in the county jail, he'd gone AWOL before that to avoid sentencing or some such. I once saw a SSG given a summarized article 15 with suspended punishment in a different company.
Sometimes it makes you wonder how you'd turn out as an human being if you went to a different school. The hammer at VMI tended to fall every day, the Special Report, is basically a summarized article 15. At one point half the regiment was in front of the barracks for penalty tour formation, was kind of a weird thing to see. I knew some guys who were almost always on confinement at VMI but they became great leaders of men because of those mistakes.
Sometimes it makes you wonder how you'd turn out as an human being if you went to a different school. The hammer at VMI tended to fall every day, the Special Report, is basically a summarized article 15. At one point half the regiment was in front of the barracks for penalty tour formation, was kind of a weird thing to see. I knew some guys who were almost always on confinement at VMI but they became great leaders of men because of those mistakes.
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