Kraut783
SOF Support
Pentagon Seeks New Sidearm
- Thread starter BloodStripe
- Start date
The holster is the safety.... mmmhmmm, ok, right... get the fuck outa here
policemedic
Verified SWAT
policemedic
Verified SWAT
A (well designed) safety on a pistol is a good thing. More to the point, it doesn't slow you down at all. As to the holster being the safety, well...I can point you to numerous people who shot themselves due to holster issues.
Agree on the modular issue.
Disagree on the run what ya brung idea. Too many reasons ranging from quality to logistics to list now, but it would be bad mojo.
Plenty of examples of people who shot themselves with pistols that have external safety's as well. But I do agree a quality holster is paramount. I've ran all types of pistols over the years, competitive, EDC, instructing, etc. I by far prefer a striker fire trigger with no external safety, for all of the above. I still love my 1911's and quite a few others with safety's, but for all practical purposes Glock is my go too. Been carrying a Glock for about 15 years now, the not having a safety isn't an issue. The funny thing, before I was forced to carry a Glock, I hated them. After I put in the time, and did a honest evaluation of it, I've become their biggest fan. Its funny how evolution happens sometimes.
As for the run what ya brung, it was meant as a joke. We all know big Army ain't having any of that.
External safety is great for folks who don't pump thousands of rounds down range annually (i.e. the majority of the folks in the military).
I haven't seen what the Army describes as modularity, but S&W, and Glock (maybe others) offer different sized backstraps for pistols, so one size fits all shouldn't be the standard.
Give Soldiers $500 to bring the 9MM of choice? Who buys spare parts, where are those parts stored and how do you get those parts into theater? Logistics turns the tide of war.
Having a safety doesn't slow an average shooter down (thumbing the safety on my M&P became 2nd nature for me).
SERPA gained a reputation for being a "Dangerous holster", I never had a problem, but then I don't put my finger on the trigger until engaging/clearing.
Fewer SHARP classes and more weapons time might be beneficial.
For those who say it's no big deal because it's only a pistol. I disagree, and I submit this photo :
I like that picture of SgtMaj Bradley Kasal, who is a total fucking Marine stud who got shot about 7 times and iced a fucking insurgent with his handgun, and I agree that we need to give our combat arms guys a reliable sidearm for the extremely rare times when he/she is up shit alley and has to pull the hogleg. Does the military necessarily need a modular system? The guys at the sharp edge need a handgun that's going to work when their life depends on it and that's got enough capacity and punch to penetrate and kill.
The modularity is most likely going to end up like the M4. Not everyone's going to get the entire kit as far as caliber changes, but they'll get the basics to be able to throw on stuff that will make things work better for them.
Which puts them in a much better position than the M9.
policemedic
Verified SWAT
Agree with all the above.
As a long-time 1911 / H&K shooter I know thumb safeties are a good thing that don't slow you down, but do add safety and an additional degree of control over the pistol when shooting.
The SERPAs are problematic for poorly trained people. But they aren't the only holster with issues. People who should know better shoot themselves at the local police academy range when reholstering because they forget to keep their finger out of the trigger guard (and there's no thumb safety to engage). This happens frequently enough to be a thing, unfortunately.
I never understood the viewpoint that it's only a pistol and pistols don't matter. I get that most engagements for most troops will be with a rifle, and so a sufficient amount of training time must be dedicated to that platform. But as has been said, when you need a pistol you really fucking need it and you either perform well or you die. If you are issued with a pistol then there is a personal/professional responsibility to be competent with it and a concurrent duty on the part of the service to ensure that you have the training time to develop and maintain that skill level.
So, yeah--more shooting and less SHARP.
SIG Sauer M17 Handgun Chossen by the U.S. Army, Replaces M9 Beretta
The M17 Pistol will apparently have some modifications before fielding. Also appears to be the mid size platform with a mid size and full size slide and barrel, with mid size or an extended magazine. An external safety is big added and the ability to remove the guts of the gun to trade frames will be fixed to the mid size frame, so that the end user cannot take it down past field stripping. Basically a modular pistol that has become not so modular. @Ranger Psych hit the nail on the head, looks like it will be a fixed platform with the ability to add a suppressor and RMR.
Sad part is at least the Glock and M&P offer interchangeable back straps for different hand sizes. The M17 will not have that option, and for you big handed mofos, it looks like your pinky finger will be hanging on the butt of the mag, or griping on the extended mag. Something I've always hated personally, but not a deal breaker.
I have been digging online trying to hunt one down with MIL/LE discounts. Looks like this is the closest version, won't have the safety and milled slide and threaded barrel.
SIG P320 Compact at Quantico Tactical
I think I'll be waiting a few months to see if the offer a civilian model that replicates the M17. I'm sure Sig will poke people in the eye for it, like they did with the Mk25's.
Might hit uo the local shop and see if I can at least get some rounds out of a mid size, to get a basic idea of the gun. From a visual aspect, I'm on the fence. Like the FDE, like the RMR milling, hate the extended slide and Mag stuff, and really hate the standard high bore axis look of Sig. But past experiences, recoil difference was not much different in the 226's and 228's from G19 or M&Ps I've shot.
The M17 Pistol will apparently have some modifications before fielding. Also appears to be the mid size platform with a mid size and full size slide and barrel, with mid size or an extended magazine. An external safety is big added and the ability to remove the guts of the gun to trade frames will be fixed to the mid size frame, so that the end user cannot take it down past field stripping. Basically a modular pistol that has become not so modular. @Ranger Psych hit the nail on the head, looks like it will be a fixed platform with the ability to add a suppressor and RMR.
Sad part is at least the Glock and M&P offer interchangeable back straps for different hand sizes. The M17 will not have that option, and for you big handed mofos, it looks like your pinky finger will be hanging on the butt of the mag, or griping on the extended mag. Something I've always hated personally, but not a deal breaker.
I have been digging online trying to hunt one down with MIL/LE discounts. Looks like this is the closest version, won't have the safety and milled slide and threaded barrel.
SIG P320 Compact at Quantico Tactical
I think I'll be waiting a few months to see if the offer a civilian model that replicates the M17. I'm sure Sig will poke people in the eye for it, like they did with the Mk25's.
Might hit uo the local shop and see if I can at least get some rounds out of a mid size, to get a basic idea of the gun. From a visual aspect, I'm on the fence. Like the FDE, like the RMR milling, hate the extended slide and Mag stuff, and really hate the standard high bore axis look of Sig. But past experiences, recoil difference was not much different in the 226's and 228's from G19 or M&Ps I've shot.
Kraut783
SOF Support
"I never understood the viewpoint that it's only a pistol and pistols don't matter."
Pistols do matter....the average pistol on the market are quality, and as a secondary firearm, will function well for the user. Few MOS's have the pistol as a primary. You and I, as civilian LEO's, have more than just a passing thought about pistols...they are our life. But for the military as a whole....why add the whole modular issue?
Just pick a quality firearm and add training to it.
Pistols do matter....the average pistol on the market are quality, and as a secondary firearm, will function well for the user. Few MOS's have the pistol as a primary. You and I, as civilian LEO's, have more than just a passing thought about pistols...they are our life. But for the military as a whole....why add the whole modular issue?
Just pick a quality firearm and add training to it.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2010
- Messages
- 2,186
Shooting yourself is a perfectly viable route to self-selection.
I don't think we should take any measures to prevent the reccurence of accidental self-inflicted gunshot wounds.
If you have so little respect/awareness with a gun that you would shoot yourself in the leg, then I'd like to know that about you sooner rather than later.
I don't think we should take any measures to prevent the reccurence of accidental self-inflicted gunshot wounds.
If you have so little respect/awareness with a gun that you would shoot yourself in the leg, then I'd like to know that about you sooner rather than later.
Devildoc
Verified Military
For a military that digs uniformity, the DoD sure likes everyone to have something different. I don't give a rat's ass if the DoD issues the SIG, the M9, the 1911, the Glock, or a Hi-Point, for crying out loud can't we have one, just one, handgun for all the services??*
*Special needs units exempted
*Special needs units exempted
In my unit in Vietnam, only the pig handler got a sidearm. When I humped the 60 I had a .45. When it came time to rotate weapons, I handed the 60 off and the .45 with it. I did not get a sidearm when it was my turn to hump one of the M79s. I had the bloop and a shitload of 40mm HE and lume and a Kabar. That was it. So after a week or so of feeling pretty naked (especially in heavily wooded/trail/jungle areas where the close vegetation restricted the 79s effectiveness and presented the risks of tree bursts), I asked one of my counterpart buds to get me a sidearm on the Black Market. He got back to me a few days later with a .38 of unknown manufacture, a holster and six bullets. I think I gave him ten bucks.
Point is, if you're in a combat arms MOS, and even if you never have to use it, it does provide some measure of security and confidence.
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We do, conventional forces all use the M9, and will transition to the M17.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2010
- Messages
- 2,186
Too bad you folks didn't have these, they're a great way to set the tone on initial contact.
No spacegun like you Starship Troopers
...but I did have to hump one of these motherfuckers...on a whim from the XO who thought it might "even the playing field." It weighed a fucking ton. I sent it back a week later on the resup 46 requesting either a tank or a helicopter to mount it on. They sent me out a rifle the next day. It would've been fine as a mounted weapon or a defensive weapon on a perimeter...or in open country. But not for a small mobile unit like ours.XM174, automatic 40mm GL with an oval 12 round mag (for HE only) and a selector for full or semi. I test fired it in the open rice paddies and the ARVNs thought I was a fucking god...but forget it for close contacts. Weight was a serious problem. It was an ammo pig and another Marine had to be assigned to carry extra ammo. Getting rid of it freed two of us up.
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ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Of course, you always have a protest: GLOCK Protests XM17 Modular Handgun System Award - Soldier Systems Daily
