Question

SgtUSMC8541

Marine Scout Sniper
Verified Sniper
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
847
Location
New Yawk
OK, I just hired a new employee. Army National Guard. Ive seen his DD214 and he is a Ranger School Grad as well as a combat medic. Good guy. (Spec 4)

Now for my question....... I allow former Marines to wear a small EGA on their uniform. He started wearing the SF Crest on his. He did just transfer into a SFNG Unit in Mass, but he has not even drilled with them yet. Does he rate the Crest? He has not gone through the Q course or any other SF training. When asked about it, he said he rates it because his Unit is an SF unit.

Just want to know if I he rates it. IF he does, rock on and he can wear it on his uniform. If not....... then oh, hell no.
 

SgtUSMC8541

Marine Scout Sniper
Verified Sniper
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
847
Location
New Yawk
Thanks Marauder. Just to clarify, this is on a Security Officer Uniform. Not an Army uniform.

It just rubbed me as rather deceptive. I have 5 Marines who work there as well and they range from an FSSG guy, a FAST/MSG guy, a Batt Recon buba and two grunts. They all wear the same pin. Just felt like, although he is in the unit, he is not SF yet. There is no doubt that he will make it, (he is very squared away and bright) but by using that pin I feel he is saying he IS SF.
 

Marauder06

Intel Enabler
Verified SOF
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
10,716
Location
CONUS
Does the item in question resemble the attached .gif? If so, what he's wearing is "distinctive unit insignia."

If he's assigned to the unit, he rates the crest.

In the Army, we call unit crests "distinctive unit insignia (DUI)." Anyone assigned to a unit authorized a distinctive unit insignia is in turn authorized to wear the insignia on their uniforms, regardless of any other qualification or lack thereof. Generally speaking the only time you see someone wearing DUI is on their headgear, on the epaulets of their dress greens, and on the right breast of their greens and blues.

In most cases, when you leave the unit, you change DUIs. There are also cases in which individuals can "affiliate" with a prarticular unit, and can wear the DUI of their choice above the right breast of their dress greens and blues regardless of their current unit of assignment. I believe that only applies to combat arms folks.

Wiki has a pretty good explanation, see AR 670-1 for details
 

Attachments

  • crest_animated.gif
    crest_animated.gif
    33.7 KB · Views: 135

Marauder06

Intel Enabler
Verified SOF
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
10,716
Location
CONUS
A lot of people think that being "in" an SF unit makes one SF, much as in the way being "in" the Marine Corps makes one a Marine. That's not the case in SF.

For support folks like Free and me, a gig at as SF unit is "needs of the Army," just like the conventional force. Being in an SF unit does not make one SF, no more than being "in" church on Sunday makes one a Catholic. There is specific training associated with "being" SF that most support types never acquire.

Sometimes some support types try to capitalize on the prestige of the Special Forces by... not lying per se, but allowing people to assume they're SF when they aren't (which is pretty much the same thing as lying in my book).

Dude's probably just proud to be in an SF unit- I know I was. I think it's kind of clownish for him to wear his SF DUI -I wouldn't do it- but there's nothing wrong with it as long as he's not claiming to be SF, and not allowing people to think that he is. I don't think there's anything wrong with you allowing him to wear the SF DUI on his uniform if you're allowing other former military to display similar items.
 

SgtUSMC8541

Marine Scout Sniper
Verified Sniper
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
847
Location
New Yawk
Does the item in question resemble the attached .gif? If so, what he's wearing is "distinctive unit insignia."

If he's assigned to the unit, he rates the crest.

In the Army, we call unit crests "distinctive unit insignia (DUI)." Anyone assigned to a unit authorized a distinctive unit insignia is in turn authorized to wear the insignia on their uniforms, regardless of any other qualification or lack thereof. Generally speaking the only time you see someone wearing DUI is on their headgear, on the epaulets of their dress greens, and on the right breast of their greens and blues.

In most cases, when you leave the unit, you change DUIs. There are also cases in which individuals can "affiliate" with a prarticular unit, and can wear the DUI of their choice above the right breast of their dress greens and blues regardless of their current unit of assignment. I believe that only applies to combat arms folks.

Wiki has a pretty good explanation, see AR 670-1 for details

Yup. Thats the one!

I think I am just going to limit the wearing of pins to branch of service. Army, Navy, Marine, Air Farce and Coast Guard. That way I dont have to worry about my Recon bubbas tossing all their bubbles and wings on.
 

SgtUSMC8541

Marine Scout Sniper
Verified Sniper
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
847
Location
New Yawk
A lot of people think that being "in" an SF unit makes one SF, much as in the way being "in" the Marine Corps makes one a Marine. That's not the case in SF.

For support folks like Free and me, a gig at as SF unit is "needs of the Army," just like the conventional force. Being in an SF unit does not make one SF, no more than being "in" church on Sunday makes one a Catholic. There is specific training associated with "being" SF that most support types never acquire.

Sometimes some support types try to capitalize on the prestige of the Special Forces by... not lying per se, but allowing people to assume they're SF when they aren't (which is pretty much the same thing as lying in my book).

Dude's probably just proud to be in an SF unit- I know I was. I think it's kind of clownish for him to wear his SF DUI -I wouldn't do it- but there's nothing wrong with it as long as he's not claiming to be SF, and not allowing people to think that he is. I don't think there's anything wrong with you allowing him to wear the SF DUI on his uniform if you're allowing other former military to display similar items.

He just transfered in to the unit so he could go to the Q course so I am not sure how he is "attached" to the unit.
 
K

Kurt V

Guest
At Bragg seemed like everybody and their brother (or sister) went around with the green beanie with crest. Which is why the important question to ask was "are you flash qualified?" In this case, he is not.
 

pardus

Verified Military
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
9,976
Tell him to take it off, thats half a step from posing in my book.
Same as the bouncer at H&H, giving the impression he's something that he actually isn't. :2c:
 

Marauder06

Intel Enabler
Verified SOF
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
10,716
Location
CONUS
(ref. your last two posts)


If he's in the unit, he rates the insignia. Probably a good idea about restricting the insignia to branch of service, it'll cut down on some of the
"way out there" stuff.

No need to tell him to remove it otherwise; it's not posing to wear something you're entitled to wear. Obviously he was up front to you about his status.
 
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
67
Location
In the Lovenasium
There is a difference between a DUI on the shoulder and a DUI above the right pocket. The shoulder DUI indicates your unit. The right pocket one indicates your regimental affiliation. A special operations support soldier wouldn't be affiliated with the First Special Forces, so he would not wear the SF crest above the pocket, just on the shoulder straps and beret. As SIGDET members, we wore the Signal Corps DUI above the pocket on Class As (though we never wore them my entire time in Group). Riggers would wear Quartermaster Corps, MI guys the MI Corps, drivers TC Corps, personnel clerks the AG Corps, etc.

I wouldn't bust chops too much, because it's probably more pride than posing. I would agree with Marauder06's perspective. The H&H bouncer was a different story, because he had left the Army rather than go SF, so for him to imply any SF connection was BS.
 

SgtUSMC8541

Marine Scout Sniper
Verified Sniper
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
847
Location
New Yawk
I am going to just go with service pins....... but with that note, what would his position in the NGSF unit be? He hasnt done the Q yet, hell, hasnt even drilled yet with them. Would he be asigned to an ODA?


I was given this info from another site, not THAT site :), and it seems to answer the main question.
If you are a Active/Reserve/NG/IRR service member you have regulations/rules that you have to follow.

You will not wear any uniform accessory on Civilian attire except Miniature items that are listed in the regulation. You can do a search in google for AR670-1 and it will detail what is allowed here is the section that Ref this

AR670-1, Chapter 29–4. When wear of awards is prohibited.
The wear of awards is prohibited in the following circumstances.
a. On any uniform other than those authorized in this regulation. (See section 704, title 18, United States Code (18
USC 704) for the penalty for unauthorized wear of the uniform.)
b. When serving a sentence of confinement.
c. When wearing civilian clothing, except for civilian awards, lapel buttons, or rosettes intended for wear with civilian clothing. Soldiers may wear miniature medals on formal civilian attire at formal social functions, when the
wear of the Army uniform is inappropriate or not authorized.

Even after he gets out of the military and is in the IRR he is still subject to this regulation. After that time is over he can try what ever he wants if no one kicks his ass for disrespecting the uniform.

He is in violation of this reg and should not wear it. He can wear the Army Pin if he wants and that is correct.

Retires are a different section and different Rules found in Chapter 30 of the Reg.
 

pardus

Verified Military
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
9,976
I am going to just go with service pins....... but with that note, what would his position in the NGSF unit be? He hasnt done the Q yet, hell, hasnt even drilled yet with them. Would he be asigned to an ODA?


I was given this info from another site, not THAT site :), and it seems to answer the main question.

Sorted.
 

Ex3

Bionic SSSO1 plank owner
Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
Messages
1,458
Location
Manhattan
Tell him to take it off, thats half a step from posing in my book.
Same as the bouncer at H&H, giving the impression he's something that he actually isn't. :2c:

Ahhh, you're buddy......did you two exchange Christmas cards this year??? }:-)




What a complete dick that guy was. :bleh:
 

Ex3

Bionic SSSO1 plank owner
Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
Messages
1,458
Location
Manhattan
pardus762 said:
He backed down in a hurry when Zapp and Matchanu had something to say.
What I remember was Match was trying to keep Zapp from killing the guy! :cool:
 

Marauder06

Intel Enabler
Verified SOF
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
10,716
Location
CONUS
Sounds like it's moot since you've made the decision to go to service-specific pins. I haven't read through 670-1 lately, but the specific portion you quoted refers specifically to awards, which a DUI is not. Civilian companies make pins that resemble DUI as well, but are smaller/slightly different shape. If he was wearing one of those, I don't think the reg would apply.

As far as his job goes, I've heard about situations where personnel waiting for SFAS school slots have been attached to ODAs for the purposes of OJT before the course. I've only heard of it happening in the Guard. Perhaps some of our members with ODA time can confirm/deny this.
 

SgtUSMC8541

Marine Scout Sniper
Verified Sniper
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
847
Location
New Yawk
He is wearing the uniform issue pin. I know he is very proud of what he has done and what he is attempting to do. I think surrounded by Marines who are BTDT's is making him feel a bit like Custer.:) (Except for one Marine, the rest have all served in the sand box for at least one tour)

Thanks for the input all.
 

Marauder06

Intel Enabler
Verified SOF
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
10,716
Location
CONUS
Great example of proper wear of Army DUI in Rangerpsych's picture in this thread.

Note 75th Ranger Regiment DUI over his foreign jumps wings above his right breast pocket. Observe that this is different from the crest on his epaullets (<--think I probably spelled that wrong :uhh: ). The crests he wears on his shoulders are his current unit of assignment. The green loops indicate that the individual is in a combat leader position. The Ranger DUI means that he has previously affiliated with the Ranger Regiment. IIRC, you have to fill out a 4187 to request affiliation.
 
R

rangerpsych

Guest
yep, it's paperwork and typically best and most easily filled out while at the unit you are wanting to affiliate with.
 

0699

Verified Military
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
3,549
Location
NoVa
yep, it's paperwork and typically best and most easily filled out while at the unit you are wanting to affiliate with.

What is this "affiliate" thing? I've never heard of that. How does it work?

EDIT: Never mind. I re-read Zapp's post and I think I understand it now.
 
Top