I agree 100% I have wanted there to be a battalion or company of snipers and a primary MOS. This way it could work just like Alpha Co at 1st Recon BN they attached to the BLT for deployment. Same concept a plt from the sniper battalion would be attached to a BLT. This would give the Scout Sniper community a chance to grow and also keep the skills that they have obtained over the years.
S/S shortage in the Marines....
- Thread starter Devildoc
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Can't you just trade test a dude and give him the MOS?
No. You have to graduate the entire course. A significant percentage of students pass the shooting portion and fail stalking. These Marines were allowed to deploy in sniper billets and employ sniper weapons but were not given the sniper MOS. Frank, who was the subject of a Havok Journal article, is one of the most infamous Marine "snipers" in the GWOT but does not actually hold the sniper MOS because he failed stalking.
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I've seen multiple guys do well on the course, but failed a stalk or some other element of the course, although demonstrated enough competence to warrant a bit more mentoring in the sniper cell. They've then been trade tested in their missing competency at a later date and been given their ECN. It worked for us.
Allow someone to break up a school and complete the harder parts as individual events is what's wrong. It's the same thing as giving everyone a damn ribbon at the end of the race even if they didn't win. Standards are standards for a reason. There are guys that have gone through the entire course and passed it for years myself included. So why should we lower the standard for guys that can't pass and say well just go home and work on your weakness then we'll just test you in that and call it a day. No you part of being a Marine Scout sniper is going through the 13 week course or however long it is now at once. And passing everything. SSBC was the toughest school iv been to and I'v been to a lot because everyday there was a test and every day you could go home. That's why Marine Scout Snipers have the reputation that we do. If you want the MOS 8541/0317 you have to earn it like all the other HOGs have.
Standards are tied to requirements. I think sniper school currently has a mismatch between the two. Most infantry battalions are not happy with their sniper platoons. They like the precision shooting but want more scouting. A lot more scouting. No one is asking for more stalking.
MOS fields are designed to answer demand signals. This is why Recon Marines started doing VBSS. The sniper field is flailing right now because they lack representation and cannot evolve to meet future requirements.
MOS fields are designed to answer demand signals. This is why Recon Marines started doing VBSS. The sniper field is flailing right now because they lack representation and cannot evolve to meet future requirements.
Mike W & Teufel - What is the reasoning/rationale from the top that prohibits 0317 from becoming a primary MOS? Is the 0369 field that short? It seems that the Reconnaissance and Raider communities have set the standard that a specialized skillset in a specialized kind of mission is worth retaining. Trickle down effect can't be that far away... right?
The S/S school attrition rate was definitely a big deal at my BN. I think we ended up with one HOG per team on one deployment. The length of the pipeline and shortened work-ups also created a less than ideal product when it came to the scouting/observing/reporting component of the job.
Best of luck the S/S community - from a recruiting perspective, the HOGs Tooth Necklace is the most badass MOS badge out there... no need for giant eagles or tridents or patches. Straight business.
The S/S school attrition rate was definitely a big deal at my BN. I think we ended up with one HOG per team on one deployment. The length of the pipeline and shortened work-ups also created a less than ideal product when it came to the scouting/observing/reporting component of the job.
Best of luck the S/S community - from a recruiting perspective, the HOGs Tooth Necklace is the most badass MOS badge out there... no need for giant eagles or tridents or patches. Straight business.
0317 is a primary MOS until E5. There are only a handful of E6 0317 billets in the Marine Corps and even fewer E7 billets. There are no E8 or E9 billets. 0317 cannot become a primary MOS until the Marine Corps builds sniper companies and battalions.
Within our Army (NZDF) this is probably one of the few times where being so small actually pays off. Our equivalent sniper course is run at the Unit level but "Owned" by the School. The Bn's fund and run the course internally in accordance with the Sch Syllabus. Sch Staff can support it but will observe the testing phases to ensure continuity and standards. What it means is that the Unit/Bn is paying for the course so they basically have to support the Unit Sniper Supervisor/Sniper Pl Comd when he runs the course or risk a bad investment and a low pass rate. So student selection, pre training and releasing of instructors is pretty well supported.
Zero pass rates are not unheard off here but rare now that everyone tends to play the game in regards to resourcing. 30-40% is considered acceptable and generally meets attrition/posting cycle.
Zero pass rates are not unheard off here but rare now that everyone tends to play the game in regards to resourcing. 30-40% is considered acceptable and generally meets attrition/posting cycle.
This is the key. No one would care about this issue if sniper platoons met or exceeding approved manning levels. A severe sniper shortage, like we have now, is highlighted in a battalion's Deployment Readiness Reporting System report and earns you a regimental or division level face shot. No one likes those. This is how this issue became a division CG level problem to solve. Trust me when I say sniper school will not like their solution.
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Sir,
Does the school currently have a "recommended" percentage (I hate the word quota) of students to pass?
The impression I get from reading this thread is that it is completely left up to the Cadre and that they may even get a somewhat perverse pleasure in keeping the passing rate as low as possible.
Are we talking the likes of an enforced or directed quota or minimum percentage pass rate?
"Sniper Mafia's" aren't unheard of in Commonwealth Forces. The "He's not a mate" or "By not letting anyone pass I can't be replaced" reasoning comes to mind. That's partly why our Sch observes all testing and where required any instruction. Conversely if everything is above board with a low or 0 pass rate they can tell that unit CO the instructor cadre/panel did everything as required its just the students didn't meet the standard on the day which would likely indicate a selection and/or a course entry level short fall.
The school is hard. As it should be. The instructors actually work their asses off to prepare students as much as possible and improve graduation rates. They are under an incredible amount of pressure to produce more snipers.
I know of at least one sniper class that went from a 30% pass rate to 100% with the stroke of a commanding officer's pen. Problem solved General!
There is no quota or magic percentage. The instructors do there best getting these guys to pass the course. They don't look for reasons to fail a stud that's not the point. The point of any school is to train the student in the specialty that they are attending the school to get. This way that person returns to their unit as an asset with another tool. However that means that they have to pass the standards that are in place at that time, period no acceptations should be made. When you start pushing guys through to improve the numbers you get a subpar product. I have seen this happen in both the Recon community and the sniper community. All that does is looks good on paper but when you go down range it isn't so good.
Damn, How did that go down with with the 30% who actually passed? What a way to undermine the processes in place and confidence commanders would have in snipers.
I don't think anyone was happy with that move.
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