S/S shortage in the Marines....

[Gunz]

The Army had the Abrams Charter for the Ranger Regiment. The intent was those soldiers would return to Big Army and spread their skills around. Great, sounds wonderful and all, but what's the shelf life on those skills? Some stud fresh from a S/S platoon passes on his info but isn't shooting often and I'll guess that stalking isn't a skill set used in a line platoon, so how much does the Corps benefit from sending them back to the fleet?

Right, very little because the specialized individual is no longer in the environment where his special skills can be utilized. A sniper in a rifle platoon becomes a rifleman or a rifle platoon squad leader. Same with a Recon Marine or Raider. I had a former jump/dive qualled Recon guy in my weapons platoon. He didn't jump, he didn't dive, he didn't Recon anything nor did he teach us anything we didn't already know. Aside from his jump wings he was a weapons platoon squad leader like me.

It's a Marine Corps thing from BITD to resist elites within the elite. The Corps has come around some out of necessity to keep pace with the big expansion of SOF over the past 20 years, but that old mindset did not go easy.

 

[Teufel]

The Army had the Abrams Charter for the Ranger Regiment. The intent was those soldiers would return to Big Army and spread their skills around. Great, sounds wonderful and all, but what's the shelf life on those skills? Some stud fresh from a S/S platoon passes on his info but isn't shooting often and I'll guess that stalking isn't a skill set used in a line platoon, so how much does the Corps benefit from sending them back to the fleet?

This is a common misconception. An 0317 sniper will serve in a sniper billet until he is a SSgt and loses his primary MOS, along with all other infantry Marines, to become an 0369 infantry SNCO. They will either fill an above T/O team leader (or chief scout) billet, go to the school house or become an infantry platoon sergeant. Some will return to become a sniper platoon sergeant as a SSgt or a Gunny. There are no sniper companies so they have nowhere to go after the platoon level and no MOS progression past E7 GySgt.

 

[TLDR20]

This is a common misconception. An 0317 sniper will serve in a sniper billet until he is a SSgt and loses his primary MOS, along with all other infantry Marines, to become an 0369 infantry SNCO. They will either fill an above T/O team leader (or chief scout) billet, go to the school house or become an infantry platoon sergeant. Some will return to become a sniper platoon sergeant as a SSgt or a Gunny. There are no sniper companies so they have nowhere to go after the platoon level and no MOS progression past E7 GySgt.

People are poo-pooing this but it isn't different in the Army. Does there really need to be a sniper only sergeant major or master guns? Won't that just lead to a bottle neck at the higher ranks? If your community is that small, at a certain point having your own career field can be damaging. Look at all the career E-6 SARCs.

 

[Teufel]

I'm not a fan of the overall plan at all..... There is a reason why the school is a tough as it is. I am glad they are finally making it a Primary MOS, but I really feel that doing that alone will make a big impact. Right now, Marines who graduate the school, find themselves back in the Fleet in one to two years... Make it a Primary MOS, and you will find those same Marines filling those billets for 3 to 4 more years... maybe more if they make it through as a Lance Criminal.

I dealt with this problem a few years ago when only 20% of Marines in sniper platoons were S/S school graduates. This was a massive shortfall that got the attention of the Division and MEF CGs. Not good. I have looked at this problem from two perspectives. On the one hand, I have spent most of my career in Recon Battalions and Force Recon Companies. I understand challenging standards and traditions more than many of my peers. On the other hand I have also served as a commander who has unsatisfied requirements.

As a commander I only care about one thing. Train my Marines to have the qualifications required for my unit's mission readiness. This is as true for S/S school as it is for the ammo driver course that was driving me nuts at the same time. It's one thing to be 20% short of your goal. It's another to be 80% in the hole. Entire regiments were flagged red in this category at the division deployment readiness meetings. That's not a good look and will certainly send 7 tons full of hate your way.

I went to S/S basic course when this was going down. They had failed one of my Marines for failing to find a GI Joe rifle during a man observation exercise. That's some save your life shit right there. You won't last twenty seconds in country if you cant spot a GI Joe weapon on glass. I told the head instructor that he had a serious attrition problem that he needed to fix before someone significantly senior to me fixed it.

A month later the 2nd Marine Division CG had enough. He drove to S/S school on the east coast and asked them how many Marimes graduated the last course. It was something ludicrous like 5%. The CG goes hmmm you said 100%?? Spoiler alert: three stars beats paper, rock, and scissors, a royal flush, 21, and uno every day of the week. Every Marine passed.

I'm not saying he was right. But I'm not convinced he was wrong either.

 

[SgtUSMC8541]

Well... I don't think he failed for missing a GI Joe weapon... he failed because he missed it and his grades were low enough on other testing to make that the "kill shot". That being said, they relaxed standards before, and ended up raising them again. Is there some petty bull shit in "keeping it real" and keeping percentages low? At times I am sure there is. I had 44 Marines in my course... some were retreds... we graduated 11. Well 12 finished but they did not give the MOS to one of them.... did he deserve the MOS? He finished everything... but no he did not.. how do I know? He was in my team.. in my unit. He was not ready. He was also one of the best Marine in my section... he did the course a second time and graduated and earned the MOS. Some of it (Not all of it at all) falls on the unit to prepare the Marines for the course. We had a Recon Marine, who did graduate, who was just a school bubba. Boot, Infantry, Recon, Airborne, Scuba, 3 months with Recon and then off to SS course... he made it, but was he trained properly for it? Hell no... now, with optempo it is hard to get guys spun up, but with the changes, you will just have some half assed DM's and not Scout Snipers... my .02 and worth the same...

 

[Teufel]

Well. Here's the thing. Here are the things, in my experience, the infantry battalion commanders wanted their Marines to get out of S/S:

Scouting. The ability to report and utilize long range communications to disseminate tactical information and photography, to me at least, has been lacking in STA platoons after the GWOT kicked off. I think the STA community relies too heavily on unit preparation. Unit training is great if you have experienced Marines but less than ideal if you don't. I had a STA platoon with a non-sniper platoon sergeant once. Not ideal.

Long range precision fires. Let's be honest, this is the number one priority for most commanders. But it shouldn't be!

Long range precision fires. Yes, again.

Mental toughness.
Physical fitness.
...
...
...
Close order drill
Ability to collect grid squares
Messaging to Garcia
Sea Story telling
Hair cuts
Rap battling
Stalking. This is the thing commanders, in my experience, care least about. It also accounts for at least 60% of the drops, or did anyway when I was dealing with it. I'm not saying it's not important but I think it's weighted too heavily at the course since it hasn't really been required since Vietnam.

Personally I care about most about the shooting standard. To me you can't compromise that at the school house...but you will if CGs demand higher graduation rates and the school house can't figure it out. I would relax the stalking for time standard and increase input to the course. The only way to do this is with recruit contracts. Again, commanders only care about their bottom line: am I getting enough qualified snipers to man my requirements. Battalion commanders love it when they take face shots for red flags in their deployment readiness reporting system (DRRS) over sniper shortfalls. They don't care how you do it. Increasing input to increase output is the only way you can do it without adjusting standards. This program achieves that.

I stopped sending guys from 1st Force to S/S. I couldn't justify the time investment given the low return of graduates (4 or 5 months between unit training, pre-sniper and S/S school) so I contracted out a three week sniper course that met my requirements. The CG thought that was a great idea and said he would call his buddy, the TECOM CG, and see about granting those Marines the 0317 MOS. I advised against that route but it shows how crazy things were getting. He was also looking at creating a course at division schools. He didn't...but you better believe he could have. Meanwhile the course on the east coast jumped from a 20% graduation rate to 90%. Man those guys must have figured it out. I'm sure the pressure of all those stars and eagles had nothing to do with it.

 

[PCRWizard]

If your community is that small, at a certain point having your own career field can be damaging. Look at all the career E-6 SARCs.

As someone who's really looking at becoming a SARC and doesn't fully understand how promotions work could you please elaborate on why this is damaging? Does this just mean that there are so few E-7 and up and they aren't going to retire so no one can advance past E-6?

 

[Teufel]

As someone who's really looking at becoming a SARC and doesn't fully understand how promotions work could you please elaborate on why this is damaging? Does this just mean that there are so few E-7 and up and they aren't going to retire so no one can advance past E-6?

My SARCs promoted at the same rate as my Marines for the most part. They are trying to create more E8 SARC billets at NSW now. SARCs can also go blue side if they want. There was a SARC Master Chief at the White House who later became the CMC of a ship.

 

[TLDR20]

My SARCs promoted at the same rate as my Marines for the most part. They are trying to create more E8 SARC billets at NSW now. SARCs can also go blue side if they want. There was a SARC Master Chief at the White House who later became the CMC of a ship.

Marines promote pretty slow compare to an 18series though...

 

[Devildoc]

Marines promote pretty slow compare to an 18series though...

SARCS in SARC billets promote faster than corpsman in non-NSW (including green side); it is undermanned and you can zoom up to Chief (E7) pretty quick. And yes, you can cross deck to the blue side (gag), but once you hit Chief, if you are willing to cross deck, there are some pretty cool billets, both leadership and technical.*

*Of course, this was mid-90s through 2005ish. I haven't a clue how it is now.

 

[Teufel]

Marines promote pretty slow compare to an 18series though...

Promoting people fast isn't always a good thing. Promotions were accelerated during the GWOT and some Marines got promoted before they had opportunities to hit one of their career milestones and reduced their chances of making the next rank.

 

[mtm379]

Is it common for younger Marines in a Scout/Sniper Platoon to not get to the actual school in their first enlistment and leave the service as Professionally Instructed Gunmen? The article says, "One challenge the Marine Corps faces in filling out Scout Sniper platoons is that many of the Marines completing the course are nearing the end of their first term of enlistment". Similarly, an article* from last month states "Marines who are selected for Scout Sniper have already completed one deployment and are approaching their end of active service, making it hard to keep snipers in the Corps even if they get the secondary MOS" and then cites an Infantry Officer who claims, "on average a platoon has four trained snipers 'if we’re lucky.'” I apologize for having barged in on the thread, just found this interesting. Thank you.

*Major changes are in the works for Marine Corps Scout Snipers original source of article referenced.

 

[Gunz]

Is it common for younger Marines in a Scout/Sniper Platoon to not get to the actual school in their first enlistment and leave the service as Professionally Instructed Gunmen? The article says, "One challenge the Marine Corps faces in filling out Scout Sniper platoons is that many of the Marines completing the course are nearing the end of their first term of enlistment". Similarly, an article* from last month states "Marines who are selected for Scout Sniper have already completed one deployment and are approaching their end of active service, making it hard to keep snipers in the Corps even if they get the secondary MOS" and then cites an Infantry Officer who claims, "on average a platoon has four trained snipers 'if we’re lucky.'” I apologize for having barged in on the thread, just found this interesting. Thank you.

*Major changes are in the works for Marine Corps Scout Snipers original source of article referenced.

You don't go right into S/S school without spending some time in the fleet (i.e. a rifle company). You need some infantry experience. It's like all highly-specialized SOF courses...they usually want guys with some time-in-grade and experience (and maturity) before they invest in you.

 

[mtm379]

Understood, thank you Ocoka.

 

[Teufel]

Most rifle battalions will get two deployments out of a Marine on his first enlistment. Most sniper candidates screen after their first deployment and go to school after some on the job training. Some go to school prior to deploying as a pig, some do not. Some go to school and fail. Either way most can leave the service after their first deployment with a STA platoon if they don't reenlist.

 

[mtm379]

That makes sense, thank you sir.

 

[Mike W]

Well. Here's the thing. Here are the things, in my experience, the infantry battalion commanders wanted their Marines to get out of S/S:

Scouting. The ability to report and utilize long range communications to disseminate tactical information and photography, to me at least, has been lacking in STA platoons after the GWOT kicked off. I think the STA community relies too heavily on unit preparation. Unit training is great if you have experienced Marines but less than ideal if you don't. I had a STA platoon with a non-sniper platoon sergeant once. Not ideal.

Long range precision fires. Let's be honest, this is the number one priority for most commanders. But it shouldn't be!

Long range precision fires. Yes, again.

Mental toughness.
Physical fitness.
...
...
...
Close order drill
Ability to collect grid squares
Messaging to Garcia
Sea Story telling
Hair cuts
Rap battling
Stalking. This is the thing commanders, in my experience, care least about. It also accounts for at least 60% of the drops, or did anyway when I was dealing with it. I'm not saying it's not important but I think it's weighted too heavily at the course since it hasn't really been required since Vietnam.

Personally I care about most about the shooting standard. To me you can't compromise that at the school house...but you will if CGs demand higher graduation rates and the school house can't figure it out. I would relax the stalking for time standard and increase input to the course. The only way to do this is with recruit contracts. Again, commanders only care about their bottom line: am I getting enough qualified snipers to man my requirements. Battalion commanders love it when they take face shots for red flags in their deployment readiness reporting system (DRRS) over sniper shortfalls. They don't care how you do it. Increasing input to increase output is the only way you can do it without adjusting standards. This program achieves that.

I stopped sending guys from 1st Force to S/S. I couldn't justify the time investment given the low return of graduates (4 or 5 months between unit training, pre-sniper and S/S school) so I contracted out a three week sniper course that met my requirements. The CG thought that was a great idea and said he would call his buddy, the TECOM CG, and see about granting those Marines the 0317 MOS. I advised against that route but it shows how crazy things were getting. He was also looking at creating a course at division schools. He didn't...but you better believe he could have. Meanwhile the course on the east coast jumped from a 20% graduation rate to 90%. Man those guys must have figured it out. I'm sure the pressure of all those stars and eagles had nothing to do with it.

When did you do this and was it ran through SOTG or EOTG whatever they call it now, or by snipers in the company? I think its a good idea that you had to train guys up in shooting and cutting out the months they miss out on training with the platoon and team. The only thing that sucks for Recon guys that aren't school trained snipers is that we get to do the job a lot longer, so the follow on schools are great E.I. advanced sniper, mountain sniper, Urban sniper however you cant attend these school without going through the basic course. Did your guys give any feed back on this. I have a guy I trained back when I was with STA who never got to school. He went to Force with me and got a silver star for being a sniper yet he hasn't gone to sniper school. He is told he doesn't need to go to SSBC because he already trained as a sniper. Now he will never have the MOS and will never be able to go to the advanced courses.

 

[Teufel]

When did you do this and was it ran through SOTG or EOTG whatever they call it now, or by snipers in the company? I think its a good idea that you had to train guys up in shooting and cutting out the months they miss out on training with the platoon and team. The only thing that sucks for Recon guys that aren't school trained snipers is that we get to do the job a lot longer, so the follow on schools are great E.I. advanced sniper, mountain sniper, Urban sniper however you cant attend these school without going through the basic course. Did your guys give any feed back on this. I have a guy I trained back when I was with STA who never got to school. He went to Force with me and got a silver star for being a sniper yet he hasn't gone to sniper school. He is told he doesn't need to go to SSBC because he already trained as a sniper. Now he will never have the MOS and will never be able to go to the advanced courses.

Is this Wheezy? I know Frank very well. He is a great example of someone who the school house failed and shouldn't have.

We did this from 2014-16. I didn't run anything through EOTG. The battalion absorbed the MEU mission entirely and the company used alternate training venues for CQB training. I'm sure Battalion is sending guys to sniper school now. Non snipers can attend mountain sniper and receive training but cannot graduate with a certificate. That could change in the future.

I think sniper school is great and wish more guys could get that qualification. At the end of the day MEB &MEU commanders want a certain number of long range precision shooters within a set time frame. S/S school isn't generating those numbers so we had to find work-arounds to meet higher's intent. The situation could be different now.

 

[Mike W]

Yes indeed this is Wheezy. Awesome I had no clue they could attend and just not get the very that is good to hear!!

 

[Teufel]

Yes indeed this is Wheezy. Awesome I had no clue they could attend and just not get the very that is good to hear!!

There is a waiver for everything. We need a long term solution. Headquarters Marine Corps is like the big dog in the prison yard. They may not see everything that's going on but they're going to get their way when they want something. That something is increased sniper output. I think we should push that burden on Marine Corps recruiting command like we do with 0321s. We will see what happens.