SAS reservists withdrawn from Afghan front line

[AWP]

Would 21/23 SAS be better suited if they focused on a specific mission or two rather than being given too many tasks and diluting their skill sets?

 

[Scotth]

Like FF said expecting a reserve components force to be as high speed as there AD counter parts is ridiculous idea. It doesn't matter if there conventional or SOF. Having those battalions in place and not having to reinvent the wheel if you need more capabilities will be a huge asset.

If they continue to not meet the needs of the military that is a failure of the chain of command not the battalions. Reading the article and all the talking about finding the TA a "role" screams out what the very heart of the problem is. There role should be the same as the AD counter parts with plans on how to conduct training in peace time and a detailed plan on the train up needed to make them deployable when needed. Not some lesser "role" that they can conduct at there current training level.

 

[AWP]

Reading the article and all the talking about finding the TA a "role" screams out what the very heart of the problem is. There role should be the same as the AD counter parts with plans on how to conduct training in peace time and a detailed plan on the train up needed to make them deployable when needed. Not some lesser "role" that they can conduct at there current training level.

But the CT aspect of 22 SAS isn't something that can be done as a Reservist.

 

[Rapid]

Idk, but in my opinion i have always considered the 22nd to be the real and only SAS, and the 21st and 23rd just two units that somehow ended up sharing the same name.

Missed this the first time round... See, 22 SAS was formed by members of 21 SAS (who helped successfully defeat the Malayan insurgency), not the other way round, so it very much is the "real" SAS. Just as real as all the former (and perhaps future) Regiments, because the SAS didn't begin with 22 and there's nothing to say that it'll end with it for sure. SAS doesn't = "CT"; that's just what 22 SAS does.

Would 21/23 SAS be better suited if they focused on a specific mission or two rather than being given too many tasks and diluting their skill sets?

Right now the core role is Support and Influence operations (S&I). S&I operations are often conducted in support of the work of other government departments, or as part of a wider initiative to achieve political or military objectives. The role encompasses: 1) Training tasks in support of foreign policy and defence policy. 2) The support and/or influence of 'third parties' within the operational environment (ex: forward presence, training and liaison with allies and other relevant parties). 3) "Hearts and Minds" support for and influence of indigenous populations. 4) Raising, training and supporting indigenous forces. 5) Information Operations.

S&I operations may also contribute to PSYOP campaigns although that isn't a specific UKSF role. If 22 SAS didn't handle counter-terrorism and a lot of the direct action, then the reserve Regiments just wouldn't work. Since 22 does handle the aforementioned roles, I wouldn't say there are too many tasks (just mostly what I outlined). There's a clear and achievable role for the reserves, but some people might be messing up their expectations and/or their management...

 

[pardus]

Not quite right mate.

22 SAS was formed separately and independently from 21SAS (in Malaya) as an unconventional unit, 21 SAS were a conventional unit as was the wartime SAS for the most part.

Members of 21 SAS did join the Malayan Scouts to form B squadron but that was after the formation of A & HQ squadrons.

Missed this the first time round... See, 22 SAS was formed by members of 21 SAS (who helped successfully defeat the Malayan insurgency), not the other way round, so it very much is the "real" SAS. Just as real as all the former (and perhaps future) Regiments, because the SAS didn't begin with 22 and there's nothing to say that it'll end with it for sure.

 

[Ravage]

Lubliniec did some training sesions with the 21st SAS (TA). Our guys learned much from the Brits.

 

[digrar]

Michael Asher has a book called Shoot To Kill that gives a fairly comprehensive account of his selection for 23 SAS back in the 80's, along with his time in 2 Para in NI and the SPG of the RUC.

 

[Rapid]

Not quite right mate.

22 SAS was formed separately and independently from 21SAS (in Malaya) as an unconventional unit, 21 SAS were a conventional unit as was the wartime SAS for the most part.

Members of 21 SAS did join the Malayan Scouts to form B squadron but that was after the formation of A & HQ squadrons.

True, didn't mean to say 21 made up 22 all by themselves, but they certainly played a part. When 21 SAS was formed, it was done because the government wanted a commando unit; they chose the Artists Rifles which was a conventional unit up until then. Eventually they acquired special operations capabilities through a squadron which ended up in Malaya (instead of Korea, as was first intended), and, as you said, was assigned as B squadron in the Malayan Scouts (which then became 22 SAS). The rest of 21 SAS back home didn't really do much until after the end of the Cold War.

 

[Scotth]

But the CT aspect of 22 SAS isn't something that can be done as a Reservist.

Agreed that CT is another animal completely. My understanding of the 22nd is about special operation as a whole with a segment of the 22nd dedicated to the CT role. I would think the 21st and 23rd with the proper selection and training and pre-deployment train up, if done correctly, could fill in all the other roles beyond CT.

From what I have read the problems starts in the selection phase and just continues beyond that point IMHO. Treating the TA selection process as a part-time 9 weekend process and a couple week long phases instead of the same selection process as the 22nd endures is a real mistake. To endure a couple days of training with a week break then rinse and repeat is a helluva lot easier then enduring 5 weeks of continual selection process. If you have a reserve component they need to meet the same standards period. Yes in peace time they can do the part-time training with the understanding that there will need to be enough training pre-deployment to bring the troops up to speed to meet the same standard. I think there are 2 standards and people are shocked because the troops aren't of the same capabilities.

Didn't the Special Forces way back in the day have a part-time selection process for RC Special Forces Groups as well that caused AD vs RC friction as well?

 

[AWP]

I think it was one of McNab's books that mentioned how various members/ troops within the SAS rotate into the CT role, but that isn't a discussion I think we should have here. Considering that 22 SAS kind of rolls our SF and SMU's into one unit would make it hard for a TA unit to follow up to that standard.

The older SF guys would know the full story, but for a long time Guard and Reserve SF soldiers had to attend a correspondence course for the SF identifier (this was pre-18 series MOS). They did a bunch of work at their unit and then 2, 2-week AT periods if my very fuzzy memory is correct (as related to me by an old 1SG who went through it). There's always been some friction between the AD and NG over NGSF, or I should say some individuals have issues with it, but if I understand our NGSF training as it compares to that of 21/23 SAS, our SF guys go through the entire SF pipeline from selection to graduation while theirs do not.

Agreed that CT is another animal completely. My understanding of the 22nd is about special operation as a whole with a segment of the 22nd dedicated to the CT role. I would think the 21st and 23rd with the proper selection and training and pre-deployment train up, if done correctly, could fill in all the other roles beyond CT.

From what I have read the problems starts in the selection phase and just continues beyond that point IMHO. Treating the TA selection process as a part-time 9 weekend process and a couple week long phases instead of the same selection process as the 22nd endures is a real mistake. To endure a couple days of training with a week break then rinse and repeat is a helluva lot easier then enduring 5 weeks of continual selection process. If you have a reserve component they need to meet the same standards period. Yes in peace time they can do the part-time training with the understanding that there will need to be enough training pre-deployment to bring the troops up to speed to meet the same standard. I think there are 2 standards and people are shocked because the troops aren't of the same capabilities.

Didn't the Special Forces way back in the day have a part-time selection process for RC Special Forces Groups as well that caused AD vs RC friction as well?

 

[Rapid]

While it might seem a lot easier to pass selection through a series of weekends (and a couple of continuous weeks) rather than in one long period, the difficulty is still well up there. In fact the endurance side will be ramped up to take this into account (i.e. that you've had all week to rest).

 

[pardus]

As Rapid says, selection is no doubt easier than 22 SAS's but it is sill bloody difficult.

Here's a good book about selection for 21 SAS in the 80's

http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Soldier-Selection-21-SAS/dp/1857971582

 

[SpitfireV]

There's a good bit about it in Richard Tomlinson's book too, I think he went to 23SAS before moving to SIS later on.

FWIW the actor who played Bodie in the 1970s documentary series The Professionals passed selection for TA SAS but then told he had too high a profile for the unit IIRC.

 

[pardus]

While it might seem a lot easier to pass selection through a series of weekends (and a couple of continuous weeks) rather than in one long period, the difficulty is still well up there. In fact the endurance side will be ramped up to take this into account (i.e. that you've had all week to rest).

Yes indeed, this is still the SAS!

They did shorten endurance down from 50 miles right?

Every SAS selection course in the world is different, there are currently 5 different selections to gain entry into one of the SAS units.

In NZSAS, they carry about an 80lb ruck as opposed to the Brit 55lb ruck but the Brits move alot faster than the Kiwis.

Everyone has adapted their selection to mach their needs.

One thing also being overlooked here is the caliber of men.
21/23 SAS might not have the sharpest skills but they have men with the right attitude who can in a pinch be trained up to do anything, the foundation is set.

Personally I'd rather take an unfit, undertrained person than take some asshole I dont trust who is mega fit and has passed every school you care to name.
Badges dont nessasarily impress me, attitude does.

:2c:

 

[pardus]

There's a good bit about it in Richard Tomlinson's book too, I think he went to 23SAS before moving to SIS later on.

FWIW the actor who played Bodie in the 1970s documentary series The Professionals passed selection for TA SAS but then told he had too high a profile for the unit IIRC.

Great show!

Yes you are correct about Bodie, he was a serving member of 10 Para when he went to selection, got a funny feeling he was an Officer (Lt).

p.s. did you know Billy Connolly was in 15 Para?

 

[SpitfireV]

I didn't know that! All I can see is that hair under the beret LOL! Rhys Darby from Conchords was RNZIR too, while we're on the topic of celebrity mil people. He was top recruit and did very well in his unit as I understand but he downplays it and says he was a slacker ha.

 

[Scotth]

One thing also being overlooked here is the caliber of men.
21/23 SAS might not have the sharpest skills but they have men with the right attitude who can in a pinch be trained up to do anything, the foundation is set.

My point exactly. Better to have the men in the reserves when you need that additional capability then having to start at ground zero. It gonna be quicker and cheaper getting them up to speed then starting at the selection phase and having to run a bunch of green recruits through the whole pipe line.

 

[digrar]

One of the Wiggles was an Infantryman in 5/7RAR, Brian Johnson from AC/DC was also a TA Para, he enlisted because the jump pay was good and he was trying to buy an amp for his band.

 

[QC]

Now there's a thought... Brian Johnson as front man for the Wiggles.

 

[digrar]

The boys were all in pub bands prior to hitting the big time singing to 4 year olds. Brian would fit right in. ;)