Snipers seek better weapons, ammo

Ravage

running up that hill
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http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2012/11/Marine-scout-snipers-afghanistan-ammo-112012/

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Lance Cpl. Paul Maxinoski, a scout sniper with 1st Battalion, 1st Marines, peers through the optic of an M110 sniper rifle in Trek Nawa, Afghanistan, on Oct. 25. Scout snipers with the unit, known as "Blackheart", have expressed concerns that more efficient weapons and ammo are needed in theatre.

TREK NAWA, Afghanistan — Marine scout snipers deployed here since this summer are frustrated with their weapons and ammunition, and are urging the Marine Corps to upgrade.

In a position paper forwarded up their chain of command and provided to Marine Corps Times, the scout sniper platoon with 1st Battalion, 1st Marines, out of Camp Pendleton, Calif., outlined perceived deficiencies in the ammo used with the 7.62mm M40A5 and the .50-caliber M107 sniper rifles. The paper is authored by 1st Lt. Brian Hayek, the platoon commander, and Sgts. Steven Winn and Joshua Ott, team leaders in the unit, which uses the call sign “Blackheart.”

Marines commonly use the M118 LR round in the bolt-action M40A5. It carries the Defense Department identification code AA11. On the M107, snipers use the Raufoss Mk 211 round, which uses the ID code A606.

Both rounds have been used for years but have flaws, Blackheart’s scout snipers said. For example, they note that the M40A5 round loses supersonic speed and stopping power at less than 1,000 meters — problematic, considering the Taliban regularly engage Marines with 7.62mm PKM machine guns out to 1,200 meters.

“The ability of the AA11 round to inflict a kill on the enemy becomes drastically reduced after 800 meters,” Blackheart said. “Multiple times on this deployment our scout snipers have had rounds impact combatants in their upper torso or in the pelvic girdle, and multiple times we have witnessed the enemy combatant drop to a knee or the prone [position] and then stand back up and surprisingly run to cover and concealment and continue fighting from another position.”

The M107’s ammunition maintains supersonic speed and stopping power out to 2,000 meters but is not accurate enough to consistently hit an insurgent through a 15-inchmurder hole punched into a mud compound, the Marines said.

“The hits that our platoon has recorded out to 1,500 meters using the A606 round have required the sniper to fire multiple shots on one target in order to ‘walk’ the rounds on to the target,” the Marines said. “This is a waste of ammunition and it compromises the sniper’s position by giving the enemy multiple rounds with which to locate the sniper’s hide.”

Blackheart said options for improvement are available, citing development of a new precision sniper rifle by U.S. Special Operations Command. The Corps could easily field the weapon once it’s ready, since it’s already a Defense Department program of record, the Marines said.

The Corps had interest in developing a new sniper rifle in 2009 and 2010, but stepped back as SOCOM launched its own PSR competition. Marine officials worked with SOCOM to develop specifications for the weapons, they said at the time.

The Army appears to have slowed development of the PSR as it improves the capabilities of the XM2010 Enhanced Sniper Rifle. Chambering the XM2010 for .300 Winchester Magnum ammo pushes its range from 1,200 to 1,500 meters.
 
Hey that's my buddy!
That reporter took a picture of him just doing his thing shooting and put it in the Times last issue. Now he's looking at an NJP for wearing Merrell boots.

Edit: he's probably going to get another njp for not wearing a kevlar in this picture. Haha
 
I was really hoping that this was bringing deficiencies of the M110 to light, but no, it's Marines complaining about what again? They still have an effective sniper system in the M40, so I don't want to hear about it.
Reed
 
I was really hoping that this was bringing deficiencies of the M110 to light, but no, it's Marines complaining about what again? They still have an effective sniper system in the M40, so I don't want to hear about it.
Reed

I'm sorry, but effective according to who? Everything that was stated in that article is dead on, minus the picture of the "M110". I've got a 40 A5 and a SASR as one of my weapons systems and neither one ever comes out of the box except for periodic maintenance. I'm lucky enough that I'm with a unit that allows me a selection of systems. My SASS gets out just as far as the 40 with slightly less accuracy and my MK-13 almost doubles the distance and accuracy with about a pound and a half less weight. So why would I want to bring out, one, a bolt gun that can't even range the targets I need to engage, or two, a gun that is heavy as shit can range the target but is too inaccurate to get a hit.The average range of my engagements out here have been around 1400m, with the closest being around 900m and the farthest being 2100m which even with the 300 I was aiming at the sky, so again effective sniper system according to who?

The .308 for a bolt action Sniper rifle is outdated technology. It was great when there wasn't a better solution; however, considering that now we have rounds like the .300 WinMag, .338 Lapua (that was designed specifically as a sniper round, and has a damn near perfect ballistic coefficient), why would we settle for a sub par round? The days of a thousand yard gun being the ideal sniper rifle are long gone. If the gun can't at least do 1500m then whats the use? We have 7.62 assault rifles that can get out to a grand and beyond accurately, i.e. LaRue OBR, and bolt guns like the Royal Marines L115A1 that fire the .338 out to two grand accurately. The only limiting factor for Scout Snipers is the rounds that their stuck with. How do I know this? Because I'm a Scout Sniper, and I know for a fact that with my 40 a 1000m shot on a windy day is a bitch. With multiple cross winds I'm lucky to be able to get a second or third round hit. Where as with my Mk-13 in .300 WinMag I can make a first round hit at a grand with little to no problem, and a 1500m shot in the same conditions isn't a whole lot harder. I don't think I know one Scout Sniper that thinks the 40 or SASR are the best or even adequate rifles for the job.

It's nothing personal but that view, by someone who's not doing the job with the same gear, of "its good enough" pisses me off to no end. Its that same attitude by senior members of the Marine Corps who have never done the job or worked with the gear that is leaving guys with shit that is sub par. Their the same ones who think they know what a Scout Sniper does or needs because they shot expert on the nice comfortable rifle range with a little bit of wind and a 500yd target.
 
whole post!

And there it is boys & girls…..could not agree more!


308 has truly become an intermediate distance round, especially now that the warfare has moved from the jungles of S/E Asia, and the cities of the Middle East into the mountains of Afghanistan. Newer technology, better bullet designs and better long range rifles have been coming out nonstop since the beginning of the GWOT for a reason. The shit that was available was not as effective and the evolution of war/combat, coupled with modernizations of technology has brought long range engagement to 1500+m without the weight and pain of humping a M107 around.


My AR10 is a sub-MOA gun out to 800m, why on earth would I move back to a bolt-gun...well unless of course is came chambered in 300/338, giving me a clear additive of longer engagement distance?

this tid-bit from the article:

The Army appears to have slowed development of the PSR as it improves the capabilities of the XM2010 Enhanced Sniper Rifle. Chambering the XM2010 for .300 Winchester Magnum ammo pushes its range from 1,200 to 1,500 meters.


The M110, shot like shit for the little bit of range time I had with it, I hear things have improved but my limited access to issue equipment is hampered at this point. My personal AR10 is custom built with a Noveski barrel and bolt, and a mixture of the guts I like, shooting ammo that I load specific for it. But I would like to think that the US Military as a whole can figure it out on the 308 semi's as the rest of the shooting world has. :ninja:
 
Jab..... erm, not to punch a hole in your target but sub-MOA is sub-MOA regardless of range. It just gets more rifleman skill-dependent the further out you go due to recognizing, understanding, and compensating for all the shit that happens between muzzle and forehead-at-range.

Hitman's screaming shit that needs someone to forget rank one night and scream in the Commandant's face.

Hell, as a rifleman, grenadier, and SAW gunner nothing pissed me off more than looking at a target shooting at me and knowing *I* couldn't hit it with what I had in my hands.

I'd be absolutely livid as a Sniper in the same situation.

Livid to the point that lower enlisted within 100m would suddenly assume the FLR as a preemptive measure and my gaze would de-parkerize metal.
 
I'm sorry, but effective according to who? Everything that was stated in that article is dead on, minus the picture of the "M110". I've got a 40 A5 and a SASR as one of my weapons systems and neither one ever comes out of the box except for periodic maintenance. I'm lucky enough that I'm with a unit that allows me a selection of systems. My SASS gets out just as far as the 40 with slightly less accuracy and my MK-13 almost doubles the distance and accuracy with about a pound and a half less weight. So why would I want to bring out, one, a bolt gun that can't even range the targets I need to engage, or two, a gun that is heavy as shit can range the target but is too inaccurate to get a hit.The average range of my engagements out here have been around 1400m, with the closest being around 900m and the farthest being 2100m which even with the 300 I was aiming at the sky, so again effective sniper system according to who?

The .308 for a bolt action Sniper rifle is outdated technology. It was great when there wasn't a better solution; however, considering that now we have rounds like the .300 WinMag, .338 Lapua (that was designed specifically as a sniper round, and has a damn near perfect ballistic coefficient), why would we settle for a sub par round? The days of a thousand yard gun being the ideal sniper rifle are long gone. If the gun can't at least do 1500m then whats the use? We have 7.62 assault rifles that can get out to a grand and beyond accurately, i.e. LaRue OBR, and bolt guns like the Royal Marines L115A1 that fire the .338 out to two grand accurately. The only limiting factor for Scout Snipers is the rounds that their stuck with. How do I know this? Because I'm a Scout Sniper, and I know for a fact that with my 40 a 1000m shot on a windy day is a bitch. With multiple cross winds I'm lucky to be able to get a second or third round hit. Where as with my Mk-13 in .300 WinMag I can make a first round hit at a grand with little to no problem, and a 1500m shot in the same conditions isn't a whole lot harder. I don't think I know one Scout Sniper that thinks the 40 or SASR are the best or even adequate rifles for the job.

It's nothing personal but that view, by someone who's not doing the job with the same gear, of "its good enough" pisses me off to no end. Its that same attitude by senior members of the Marine Corps who have never done the job or worked with the gear that is leaving guys with shit that is sub par. Their the same ones who think they know what a Scout Sniper does or needs because they shot expert on the nice comfortable rifle range with a little bit of wind and a 500yd target.
Ouch! :D Sorry, I was stating the M40 was effective compared to the 110; as in it doesn't jump up to 1.5 MOA after firing a few rounds, isn't squirrly in the 400 to 500m range and doesn't have multiple equipment failures. The experienced guys in my team have all stated the M24 was a much more effective system then the 110. That said, I was clearly out of my depth and apologize.
I do ask if scenarios like Afghanistan are going to be common in the future?
Reed
 
I do ask if scenarios like Afghanistan are going to be common in the future?
Reed

A lot of that would obviously depend on the terrain, but I'd think another driving factor would be the willingness of a commander to engage the enemy as far away as possible. Given the risk adverse "He could be a farmer" nature of places like Afghanistan (driven by the battlespace commander) some sniper systems wouldn't see the light of day.

Funny...when planning you always consider METT-T, but maybe we should start teaching our small unit leaders to consider the command and political climate as well...METT-T-CPC
 
Jab..... erm, not to punch a hole in your target but sub-MOA is sub-MOA regardless of range. It just gets more rifleman skill-dependent the further out you go due to recognizing, understanding, and compensating for all the shit that happens between muzzle and forehead-at-range.

Okay, whats your point? My point was that I can shoot my AR10 (a semi auto rifle) out to 800m and remain sub-MOA, with a capability like that, why would I want to go back to a bolt action gun like the M24 or M40?

Ouch! :D Sorry, I was stating the M40 was effective compared to the 110; as in it doesn't jump up to 1.5 MOA after firing a few rounds, isn't squirrly in the 400 to 500m range and doesn't have multiple equipment failures. The experienced guys in my team have all stated the M24 was a much more effective system then the 110. That said, I was clearly out of my depth and apologize.
I do ask if scenarios like Afghanistan are going to be common in the future?
Reed

Reed, the debate is not about the M24 being better or worse than the M110, it's about 308 not having the distance needed. Semi-auto's 308's (forget about the M110 for second) have the ability to do everything a bolt action 308's can do. So again, why would you want a bolt gun with the same distance limitations? The failures of the M110, if fixed, still does nothing for the problem of limitation of effective engagement distance. Hint’s the 300WM being discussed and the further discussion of equipment weights, engagement distances and overall package being dreamed up by dip-shits who are lost in the sauce (rank). The idea, is improve upon all aspects to meet the current requirements of the war fighter on the ground, if that is 1500m and less weight, than we should be moving in that direction (and we are). If the war ends tomorrow, and we end up in a primarily urban war (or whatever shorter distance you want to come up with) we already have the precision rifle capability covered, however, the military as a whole as yet (but it’s coming) to effectively cover the distances being seen in Afghanistan and apply that coverage ground forces wide.


A lot of that would obviously depend on the terrain, but I'd think another driving factor would be the willingness of a commander to engage the enemy as far away as possible. Given the risk adverse "He could be a farmer" nature of places like Afghanistan (driven by the battlespace commander) some sniper systems wouldn't see the light of day.

Funny...when planning you always consider METT-T, but maybe we should start teaching our small unit leaders to consider the command and political climate as well...METT-T-CPC

I hate you FF, why you gotta go there man!:wall:

But agreed, the SBIC's (shit-birds-in-charge) really do need to be properly trained to 1) use their Sniper sections properly and 2) understand the battle space commander intent and how to effectively implement the proper ROE's and 3) grow a pair of nuts, and take those newly grown nuts and put them out on the chopping block every now and again to get the primary job done (i.e. destroy the enemy).

Since I am sure we can all agree that will never happen, I expect those badass SWS that I dream of will never see the light of day in a modern conflict, unless of course we get invaded by the North Koreans and their fancy new black box of super-power shut off. But maybe, just maybe some young kid, will happened upon the intergalactic death ray SWS (probably still in some NG Armory locked away safe and sound) and will stand up and scream “WOLVERINES” and save “Merica” from all those dudes with AK’s and super-power shut off black boxes….while driving around in a New Ford Mustang, with a turret mounted mini-gun…:whatever:
 
I do not understand why the Army has decided to go with the .300 when we could have the .338 Lapua.

Can someone shed some light?

I don't have the answer, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with US vs. Foreign companies and all that.
 
We routinely test 16" AR platform guns out to 900 or better 20" barreled guns even further. OBR`s are doing well and my shop guns are right with them. The M110 as issued seem to stay in there case. The M11 ans old school SR25`s are in my opinion are better guns.
 
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