So is both the M17 and M18 trash or what?

I own a couple of different brands of handguns: SIG, Glock, S&W, Kimber, Tisas, Beretta, and a couple of others I won’t mention because people will make fun of me for it. ;) And about five different variants of the P320, including M17, VTAC, X5, and a couple I assembled from parts. I wouldn’t own any the guns mentioned if I didn’t think they were safe and effective.

I’ve said before that I do not consider myself an expert in shooting or on firearms in general. And as always on this site, I’m speaking in my personal capacity and not as a rep of any organization. But our entire team is equipped with 320 variants and has been for years. That’s 20+ cadets on the range at least three days a week shooting thousands of rounds a semester doing action shooting.

Action shooting includes lots of drawing from the holster. Lots of swapping grip modules and FCUs. Lots of different ammo types. Lots of unskilled (at first) shooters. Lots of running, crawling, sliding, jumping, squatting… you get the idea. On top of what we do, the school trains thousands of cadets a year on M17 basics. Our team trains the installation level Best Ranger/Best Sapper and people who want to prep for GAFB. The guns get shot, and holstered/unholstered (and even dripped; it’s action shooting) a lot. I don’t know of a single case of an uncommanded fire or a round going off that wasn’t a conspicuous ND.

We do a lot of T&E with our guns. We tried and were unable to replicate uncommanded discharges of the type we’ve heard about up to this point, although I saw a video a couple of days ago that I’m going to try when I get back to school.

I fully recognize that there could be problems that we simply haven’t encountered yet. I’m personally very concerned that there have been so many reports of these incidents. But if the chain of command here asked me if we should shelve the 320s—which they won’t because there are many people here much more knowledgeable than I am on this kind of thing—then based on what we know right now I’d feel comfortable saying “no.”

For now.

If the data changes later, I’ll change my opinion.
 
Last edited:
Marauder06 said:
I own a couple of different brands of handguns: SIG, Glock, S&W, Kimber, Tisas, Beretta, and a couple of others I won’t mention because people will make fun of me for it. ;) And about five different variants of the P320, including M17, VTAC, X5, and a couple I assembled from parts. I wouldn’t own any the fund mentioned if Indisnt think they were safe and effective.

I’ve said before that I do not consider myself an expert in shooting or on firearms in general. And as always on this site, I’m speaking in my personal capacity and not as a rep of any organization. But our entire team is equipped with 320 variants and has been for years. That’s 20+ cadets on the range at least three days a week shooting thousands of rounds a semester doing action shooting.

Action shooting includes lots of drawing from the holster. Lots of swapping grip modules and FCUs. Lots different ammo types. Lots of unskilled (at first) shooters. Lots of running, crawling, sliding, jumping, squatting… you get the idea. On top of what we do, the school trains thousands of cadets a year on M17 basics. Out team trains the installation level Best Ranger/Best Sapper and people who want to prep for GAFB. The guns get shot, and holstered/unholstered (and even dripped; it’s action shooting) a lot. I don’t know of a single case of an uncommanded fire or a round going off that wasn’t a conspicuous ND.

We do a lot of T&E with our guns. We tried and were unable to replicate uncommanded discharges of the type we’ve heard about up to this point, although I saw a video a couple of days ago that I’m going to try when I get back to school.

I fully recognize that there could be problems that we simply haven’t encountered yet. I’m personally very concerned that there have been so many reports of these incidents. But if the chain of command here asked me if we should shelve the 320s—which they won’t because there are many people here much more knowledgeable than I am on this kind of thing—then based on what we know right now I’d feel comfortable saying “no.”

For now.

If the data changes later, I’ll change my opinion.
Click to expand...

I think we're (well, I am not "we" as I neither own one nor shoot one, so have no dog in the fight) playing a numbers game. The issues are not a N=1, so there's definitely a trend of issues. Now the question becomes are the statistically insignificant numbers of guns that have had issues in the population of guns and users worth doing anything different? Everyone that owns one, every department/agency that has them, they have to determine that.

The bigger issue to me is SIG doubling down on their argument that there's nothing wrong when clearly there is, that's bad business, and they are starting to see that. Now, will they continue doing what they are doing, or are they willing to change course? No idea.
 
Devildoc said:
I think we're (well, I am not "we" as I neither own one nor shoot one, so have no dog in the fight) playing a numbers game. The issues are not a N=1, so there's definitely a trend of issues. Now the question becomes are the statistically insignificant numbers of guns that have had issues in the population of guns and users worth doing anything different? Everyone that owns one, every department/agency that has them, they have to determine that.

The bigger issue to me is SIG doubling down on their argument that there's nothing wrong when clearly there is, that's bad business, and they are starting to see that. Now, will they continue doing what they are doing, or are they willing to change course? No idea.
Click to expand...

And there's the issue I think. Reports of P320 uncommanded discharges are much greater than those reported with other striker-fired pistols. I don't blame @Marauder06 for saying he'd keep the weapons anymore than I do an org pulling them over safety concerns.

SIG saying there isn't an issue when something is clearly wrong is laughable. Given the number in use and produced, I'd love to know the batches made and with what internals from what supplier. Arguably the most damning fact out there is that problems were identified in 2017 and "fixed" which means the gun somehow made it past SIG's QA process before DoD trials began. What does SIG's QA process look like today?

I forget the airframe, but one had a crash later attributed to a bolt installed facing the wrong direction. Dozens were discovered to have the same flaw all because a tech put it in wrong and QA phoned in their "inspection." SIG's problem could be as simple as a bad batch of steel being used on a single part. Which QA should have caught, but proper QA can be expensive and time consuming.

SIG needs to pull its head out of its ass though.
 
I understand that many—perhaps most—P320s won’t have a problem. But some have, and others will. To me, this speaks of inconsistencies in the manufacturing chain. But at the end of the day, the reason these things fire on their own isn’t relevant. The fact is, any individual SIG P320 based gun can decide to fire on its own.

We had a SIG P320 fire of its own accord in a mass transit station here in the city—on video, no less. A SEPTA Transit police officer was stepping off a golf cart and kaboom. Holstered weapon in a Safariland holster, hands nowhere near the gun.

Transit PD immediately pulled the weapons and placed an order with Glock. Pending the arrival of their order, the Philadelphia Police lent them 100+ Glock pistols. That kind of interagency cooperation is unheard of and speaks to how seriously both PDs viewed the issue.

Any manufacturer can have a bad day, so to speak. I’ve carried S&W, Glock, FN, HK, Colt, Wilson Combat, Remington, and LWRC. Great guns and companies but any of them could have had an issue. The thing is, SIG has not fixed the issue and refuses to take ownership of this well-known problem.

I won’t touch them.
 

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