Special Forces Basic Combat Course - Support (SBBCS)

[AWP]

For some reason I'd forgotten about the course and I had to do some digging to find only a few mentions of it here on the board. 2/19 put out a pretty cool video, I'm kind of surprised we haven't heard much about it here before.

 

[Box]

We used to run them all the time - oddly - "we" were just talking about the SFBCC-S training schedule last week

 

[AWP]

I'm kind of floored the board hasn't discussed this much, particularly with people like @Marauder06 and me beating the "support needs more selection and training" dead horse until it looks worse than Kathy Griffin.

I think the program is fantastic and I am jealous. I'm also sad it took about a decade of conflict to begin something which was identified as a need before I enlisted in '93.

 

[Box]

The reason that some of this will "never" be formalized is simple - if we turn away combat support and combat service support enablers because they can't do an "El Presidente" in under 10 seconds then we are cutting off our nose to spite our face...
...sending a SOF enabler down the road because they only score 70% on an event during the ACFT
...changing an assignment because an enabler keeps flagging people during CQB drills

Recruiting and retention suck.
Recruiting and retention suck everywhere.
Making recruiting and retention even worse by installing subjective standards increases the suck quite a bit.

The unfortunate reality is that when one of the groups gets in a new Parachute Rigger - the very first thing that troop needs to start doing is packing parachutes.
...or we could send them away because they are only "passing" the US Army PT test
...and continue to complain that we need riggers

Folks all over the USA are becoming increasingly aware that feeding the troops has become a dumpster fire - there are stories all over the interwebz about military chow halls being mismanaged and even running out of food for the troops that live in the barracks and rely on the DFAC for their 'three squares'
...but then we reject that brand new 92G because he is a fat ass.

I know things change - but when we did SFBCC-S there were no "failures"
If you just couldn't beat good muzzle awareness into one of the support troops (or even some fucking team guys for that matter), you just "blue barrel" them. Take away their live ammo and make them carry a blue barrel and simunitions for the rest of the duration of training. Carrying a blue barrel is a big enough kick to the nuts of your ego that it will make you pay closer attention to where you are pointing your boom stick.
...but you will still continue to train

Under that paradigm - I thought SFBCC-S was worth its weight in gold. Some units can afford to be extra selective about who stays and who goes - the SF Groups don't always have that luxury. Sometimes a fat kid that with mechanic skills that would make MacGyver cry is more valuable than a yellow belt ninja that spends most of their time on the FOB.

Just my two cents

 

[AWP]

Under that paradigm - I thought SFBCC-S was worth its weight in gold. Some units can afford to be extra selective about who stays and who goes - the SF Groups don't always have that luxury. Sometimes a fat kid that with mechanic skills that would make MacGyver cry is more valuable than a yellow belt ninja that spends most of their time on the FOB.

Did a SF soldier just stand up for support guys?

You make a great point I have not considered (assuming my reading comprehension skills aren't trash): Not everyone needs to leave the FOB, but Group needs great soldiers.

A course like SBBCS allows a commander to "rack and stack" personnel. You're dog at shooting but fluent at Cisco? FOB. Fatass but can fix (vehicle here) in your sleep? FOB. Cook or parachute rigger or whatever who can shoot and learn weapon systems? Convoy security. The breakdown goes on. A BSC/ GSC commander now has an idea of who can they employ and where.

If I'm misreading your post, I apologize. If I'm an 18A commanding a BSC? I stand by my post (despite being neither).

 

[Marauder06]

I think that any love SF shows to support pax is a step in the right direction. But we have to get the recruiting right first. "Recruit hard, manage easy."

If the SF Regiment is going to get serious about the support side and do something like this at scale, it needs to be centralized at Ft. Liberty and it needs to start with an SFSAS (Special Forces Support Assessment and Selection) that is tailored to the unique needs of supporting SF ***and is NOT SFAS or SFAS(lite).*** Bring everyone into the mother ship. Make sure they have what it takes to make meaningful contributions to SF as a support troop. Then train them up together so we see how they function in a unit, we pool resources, and we ensure that each Group gets a consistent level of training, ability, and potential from their troops when they show up. Limit it so certain MOSs and pay grades if necessary.

If that very sexy video showing support guys doing a lot of firing and maneuvering is part of a broader training program, great. I mean that with all sincerity. That's a great way to give support guys training that they will find valuable (even if they never use it ) and it will help them see themselves as part of the team. 19th Group is making an investment in their enablers in a way I never saw or heard about from any active duty Groups back in the day. But we need to get the right people into the right groups at the right times, or else you'll have support guys still not meeting expectations and still getting under-utilized, just with sexier kit.

 

[AWP]

I think that any love SF shows to support pax is a step in the right direction. But we have to get the recruiting right first. "Recruit hard, manage easy."

If the SF Regiment is going to get serious about the support side and do something like this at scale, it needs to be centralized at Ft. Liberty and it needs to start with an SFSAS (Special Forces Support Assessment and Selection) that is tailored to the unique needs of supporting SF ***and is NOT SFAS or SFAS(lite).*** Bring everyone into the mother ship. Make sure they have what it takes to make meaningful contributions to SF as a support troop. Then train them up together so we see how they function in a unit, we pool resources, and we ensure that each Group gets a consistent level of training, ability, and potential from their troops when they show up. Limit it so certain MOSs and pay grades if necessary.

If that very sexy video showing support guys doing a lot of firing and maneuvering is part of a broader training program, great. I mean that with all sincerity. That's a great way to give support guys training that they will find valuable (even if they never use it ) and it will help them see themselves as part of the team. 19th Group is making an investment in their enablers in a way I never saw or heard about from any active duty Groups back in the day. But we need to get the right people into the right groups at the right times, or else you'll have support guys still not meeting expectations and still getting under-utilized, just with sexier kit.

There has to be a better way than "Here's your orders." It doesn't need to be complicated or expensive, but there has to be a better way than a detailer or whoever dropping someone against an available slot.

 

[Box]

Did a SF soldier just stand up for support guys?

My first two years in the Army - I was a support guy in the 7th SFG so I know first hand what its like to get treated like shit JUST because you are a support guy. I've been on both sides of the 'support guy' game and by the time I was a Team Sgt, I knew that my ODA wouldn't even be able to go to the range if it wasn't for parade of support guys processing my ammo request, getting hot coffee and soup for those long shitty days on the range - the mechanics for making sure I had a vehicle to get all my shit to the range - the list goes on...

I was lucky enough to be treated good by the SF dudes that I interacted with as a brand new troop and more dudes treated me like a Private that needed direction instead of just writing me off as a shitbag support guy just because I hadn't been to the Q' course.
The day to day treatment that I got from those 80's era Team Guys is what was what ultimately recruited me into selection...
...because I wanted to be like those guys

When I was older and had more sway - I always tried to treat the support guys like Soldiers - not just support guys. If you're an E5 - you'd better act like an E5 - I don't care what your MOS might be.

I've came back from patrols and watched E5/E6 teams guys leave their shit in the seat of the vehicle - and the next time you see they are either headed towards the mess hall or wandering around the camp in PT gear. Meanwhile, the Intel Guy that went on the same patrol with us stayed at the vehicle and restocked water - ammo - MREs - cleaned out trash - helped the mechanics do PMCS - etc etc etc

It only happened a couple times before my team guys got a private speaking to. I made sure that my dudes knew that the support guys were there to "support" - they aren't here to clean up after you or do menial tasks while you jokers are in your C-Hut playing World of Warcraft. I even told one of my E6's - the next time I hear you jump on the mechanic for NOT calling you Sergeant after you just called me by my first name RIGHT in front of him...
...I'm going to tell you RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM to pack your shit because you're going to the B-Team

I'm sure that I was an unbearable dickhead way more times than I meant to be - but aren't we all.

 

[Devildoc]

Just an outsider's 30,000 foot perspective. An acquaintance is a former SEMA at 3rd group. He's moved on, but when he was there and I'd go down to talk shop, there were usually a handful of support guys around, almost all of whom wanting a shot at SFAS. He and his guys mentored them and trained them off books (on their time and not during business hours). I asked what would happen if a guy wasn't selected? He said they usually come back to group, and were still motivated because group guys took a damn interest into making support feel like teammates.

An insiders 3 foot perspective. Our trauma outcomes were sliding into the 'meh' category and 'not great' was coming up. We looked at this and realized that there was a chasm between trauma surgery and RNs. The RNs and support were not valued as being part of the team. Trauma made some changes in leadership and education, we routinely do interdisciplinary training (as a team), and have even taken this off campus to the city and county fire departments and to county EMS? Trauma outcomes have skyrocketed.

Valuing your team and investing in making them better helps the outcome. That ain't rocket surgery.

 

[AWP]

One last rant, probably.

When a support soldier checks in to their battalion/ Group, the FIRST thing they should learn is how to create, shape, wear, and maintain their beret. In a classroom. Teach them Special Forces history. Jedburghs. Vietnam, especially FOB 1's attack and defense. The A camps. A Shau Valley, El Sal, ODA 525 in Iraq, B20 in Iraq (bear with me) and their comm problems... In 4 hours you can give them buy in to their importance to Special Forces as a whole. Add/ subtract topics as needed.

You've just given them why they exist, why they matter, and why excellence matters. In less than one day you've given them a big picture "here's why you matter" lesson, a beret to be proud of, and to connect them to prior generations.

People crave value, they crave importance, they want to know their sacrifices in time, family, injuries, etc. matter to a greater good.

You can do this for Support pax for pennies on the dollar. This isn't difficult.

 

[AWP]

My first two years in the Army - I was a support guy in the 7th SFG so I know first hand what its like to get treated like shit JUST because you are a support guy. I've been on both sides of the 'support guy' game and by the time I was a Team Sgt, I knew that my ODA wouldn't even be able to go to the range if it wasn't for parade of support guys processing my ammo request, getting hot coffee and soup for those long shitty days on the range - the mechanics for making sure I had a vehicle to get all my shit to the range - the list goes on...

I was lucky enough to be treated good by the SF dudes that I interacted with as a brand new troop and more dudes treated me like a Private that needed direction instead of just writing me off as a shitbag support guy just because I hadn't been to the Q' course.
The day to day treatment that I got from those 80's era Team Guys is what was what ultimately recruited me into selection...
...because I wanted to be like those guys

When I was older and had more sway - I always tried to treat the support guys like Soldiers - not just support guys. If you're an E5 - you'd better act like an E5 - I don't care what your MOS might be.

I've came back from patrols and watched E5/E6 teams guys leave their shit in the seat of the vehicle - and the next time you see they are either headed towards the mess hall or wandering around the camp in PT gear. Meanwhile, the Intel Guy that went on the same patrol with us stayed at the vehicle and restocked water - ammo - MREs - cleaned out trash - helped the mechanics do PMCS - etc etc etc

It only happened a couple times before my team guys got a private speaking to. I made sure that my dudes knew that the support guys were there to "support" - they aren't here to clean up after you or do menial tasks while you jokers are in your C-Hut playing World of Warcraft. I even told one of my E6's - the next time I hear you jump on the mechanic for NOT calling you Sergeant after you just called me by my first name RIGHT in front of him...
...I'm going to tell you RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM to pack your shit because you're going to the B-Team

I'm sure that I was an unbearable dickhead way more times than I meant to be - but aren't we all.

This needs to go out world wide. 24 years removed from a support role, this has gravity and I thank you for this post.

 

[Cookie_]

My first two years in the Army - I was a support guy in the 7th SFG so I know first hand what its like to get treated like shit JUST because you are a support guy. I've been on both sides of the 'support guy' game and by the time I was a Team Sgt, I knew that my ODA wouldn't even be able to go to the range if it wasn't for parade of support guys processing my ammo request, getting hot coffee and soup for those long shitty days on the range - the mechanics for making sure I had a vehicle to get all my shit to the range - the list goes on...

I was lucky enough to be treated good by the SF dudes that I interacted with as a brand new troop and more dudes treated me like a Private that needed direction instead of just writing me off as a shitbag support guy just because I hadn't been to the Q' course.
The day to day treatment that I got from those 80's era Team Guys is what was what ultimately recruited me into selection...
...because I wanted to be like those guys

When I was older and had more sway - I always tried to treat the support guys like Soldiers - not just support guys. If you're an E5 - you'd better act like an E5 - I don't care what your MOS might be.

I've came back from patrols and watched E5/E6 teams guys leave their shit in the seat of the vehicle - and the next time you see they are either headed towards the mess hall or wandering around the camp in PT gear. Meanwhile, the Intel Guy that went on the same patrol with us stayed at the vehicle and restocked water - ammo - MREs - cleaned out trash - helped the mechanics do PMCS - etc etc etc

It only happened a couple times before my team guys got a private speaking to. I made sure that my dudes knew that the support guys were there to "support" - they aren't here to clean up after you or do menial tasks while you jokers are in your C-Hut playing World of Warcraft. I even told one of my E6's - the next time I hear you jump on the mechanic for NOT calling you Sergeant after you just called me by my first name RIGHT in front of him...
...I'm going to tell you RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM to pack your shit because you're going to the B-Team

I'm sure that I was an unbearable dickhead way more times than I meant to be - but aren't we all.

 

[Devildoc]

My first two years in the Army - I was a support guy in the 7th SFG so I know first hand what its like to get treated like shit JUST because you are a support guy. I've been on both sides of the 'support guy' game and by the time I was a Team Sgt, I knew that my ODA wouldn't even be able to go to the range if it wasn't for parade of support guys processing my ammo request, getting hot coffee and soup for those long shitty days on the range - the mechanics for making sure I had a vehicle to get all my shit to the range - the list goes on...

I was lucky enough to be treated good by the SF dudes that I interacted with as a brand new troop and more dudes treated me like a Private that needed direction instead of just writing me off as a shitbag support guy just because I hadn't been to the Q' course.
The day to day treatment that I got from those 80's era Team Guys is what was what ultimately recruited me into selection...
...because I wanted to be like those guys

When I was older and had more sway - I always tried to treat the support guys like Soldiers - not just support guys. If you're an E5 - you'd better act like an E5 - I don't care what your MOS might be.

I've came back from patrols and watched E5/E6 teams guys leave their shit in the seat of the vehicle - and the next time you see they are either headed towards the mess hall or wandering around the camp in PT gear. Meanwhile, the Intel Guy that went on the same patrol with us stayed at the vehicle and restocked water - ammo - MREs - cleaned out trash - helped the mechanics do PMCS - etc etc etc

It only happened a couple times before my team guys got a private speaking to. I made sure that my dudes knew that the support guys were there to "support" - they aren't here to clean up after you or do menial tasks while you jokers are in your C-Hut playing World of Warcraft. I even told one of my E6's - the next time I hear you jump on the mechanic for NOT calling you Sergeant after you just called me by my first name RIGHT in front of him...
...I'm going to tell you RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM to pack your shit because you're going to the B-Team

I'm sure that I was an unbearable dickhead way more times than I meant to be - but aren't we all.

This really good. Imagine that, treating people how you want to be treated, valuing their role, and having expectations. How...novel.

In the navy and Marines, two units always had a need for medical support, NSW and recon. I did both (4th NSWG and 4th recon (reserve unit, Atlanta). Maybe because the corpsman-Marine relationship is a bit different, but I was always as included as I could be, never excluded, always felt like I was valued. That was a great time.

 

[Marauder06]

One last rant, probably.

When a support soldier checks in to their battalion/ Group, the FIRST thing they should learn is how to create, shape, wear, and maintain their beret. In a classroom. Teach them Special Forces history. Jedburghs. Vietnam, especially FOB 1's attack and defense. The A camps. A Shau Valley, El Sal, ODA 525 in Iraq, B20 in Iraq (bear with me) and their comm problems... In 4 hours you can give them buy in to their importance to Special Forces as a whole. Add/ subtract topics as needed.

You've just given them why they exist, why they matter, and why excellence matters. In less than one day you've given them a big picture "here's why you matter" lesson, a beret to be proud of, and to connect them to prior generations.

People crave value, they crave importance, they want to know their sacrifices in time, family, injuries, etc. matter to a greater good.

You can do this for Support pax for pennies on the dollar. This isn't difficult.

"It means more when it's earned, not given." (old school Rangers, probably)

 

[amlove21]

For some reason I'd forgotten about the course and I had to do some digging to find only a few mentions of it here on the board. 2/19 put out a pretty cool video, I'm kind of surprised we haven't heard much about it here before.

This is rad.

 

[Cookie_]

There are lots of really good thoughts and conversations in this thread; I want to touch on a couple of them.

I'll start by saying that my unit holds an SFBCC-S every 2-3 years, but I've never formally attended one. I've missed them because of ALC, providing food service support for ODAs being validated before deployment, and being a SUPCEN NCO for my deployment. I've had the training in bits and pieces through those events, so I can't directly speak to how the whole course is.

However, I can say I have yet to have a soldier who didn't come out of SFBCC-S feeling like they got really good training, if not the best training of their careers. Support peeps already often get less range/skills time, even more so in the Guard; two weeks with ODAs is more training than some of them will get in years of service. It also gets our support dudes face time with the teams, which is a huge step for getting that respect flowing both ways. The only limiting factor of SFBCC-S is the attitude and professionalism of the ODA instructing, which I will call "Box Mentality" because @Box provided the best example of what the team/support relationship should be.

Teams/GBs with the Box mentality are great at identifying what skills the support kids have, how they can benefit the team, and making sure those skills are properly put to work. They'll be the team that learns the slightly chubby SIGINT guy is a UAS engineer for Lockheed and can help with training partner forces. Teams without that mentality will take the PT stud mechanic who is "a cool dude" but won't learn that he hasn't worked on a military vehicle in years, let alone a civilian truck; it turns out being a cool dude doesn't fix an MRZR. Hell, a dude with the Box mentality is singlehandedly responsible for changing the command/work climate on my deployment by simply treating the dudes as people instead of machines; what a crazy concept!

---------

I've been spearheading the "green platoon" idea at my company. It's just some training/PT events that have a "good standard" like a 540 on the ACFT and a 1:30 45# 6-mile, but there are no negatives if they don't meet those. I had pushback from previous commanders because it took time away from other tasks or didn't "meet the METL". Luckily, I'd everyone in my S3 and BN CMD are now Box-styled guys; we'll be doing our first classes in January. @AWP just helped give me all the resources for SOF History 101.

 

[SpongeBob*24]

In reference to That video...it is super cool. They need a better acronym though. Sir Buck ASS is what I heard. Shoot move COMMUNICATE. I saw little of the 3rd. I wish they would have put a little comm in there, but we all know that doesn't sell. They could have at least had guys wear radios.


In reference to treating pax without respect, i always followed this: No matter how cool you think you are, someone is cooler. If you live by that, you tend to treat people better.

Good luck with your new program Cookie!