Special Forces, Up Close and Personal (Afghanistan) - video
- Thread starter jasion
- Start date
Elevated my heart rate
interesting video.... (but... is this a SF technique?)
Lucky
Is what an SF technique, letting Afghan Security Forces take the lead in securing their own country with SF as advisors and mentors? No, it is not an SF technique, its a common sense approach which is utilized by SF.
If you were referring to something entirely different then please be more specific.
...hey mate... common sense approach?.....let's try to analyze some still images...
1) the squad arrive to OBJ by car in broad daylight and stopped the car at 100 meters from the OBJ
2) The OBJ is small, isolated and is located in open field, cover and concealement are difficult. The appproach should be done very carefully because OBJ is occupied (there is a motorbike)
3) Operators meet the Principal Direction of Fire (PDF) during the approach
4) Operators are too far from the OBJ's wall... there are many slots, a window, the entrance door.... and when it's time to break-in, rifle is not in position.... (barrel down...)
5) After break-in, first operator look on the right side not in front of him.... he will be lucky 1" after, in effect in front of him there is an insurgent....
6) SureFire switch on.....
7) with 2 potential insurgents in the room, without cover on the door, operator leaves his M4, raising his right hand...
Do you like it?....
pardus
Verified Military
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Mike, I'm not going to get into specifics because 1, I'm not SF and 2, I wasn't there during this raid.
Remember you and I were not there so we don't know why the raid was done in broad daylight, I can think of a few good reasons though.
One point about parking, did you not see the berm surrounding the hut?
Remember you and I were not there so we don't know why the raid was done in broad daylight, I can think of a few good reasons though.
One point about parking, did you not see the berm surrounding the hut?
Shit, when you watch stuff like this you realise how vulnerable you are in CQB.
Brave guys.....damn brave!
Brave guys.....damn brave!
I agree with you Pardus... the berm?... exactly for this reason foxtrot approach should be treated more...
A couple things:
How many rotations or how many months/years do you have working with a host/partner nation military/police force in an active combat zone where they are the main effort and you are there to support and advice them?
How much time do you have in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or any other third world shit hole conducting operations? It doesn't seem as though you have much if any given some of these questions/comments you are making.
Regardless, I will entertain your musings, within reason, as I have been in this situation a time or two...
Common sense approach in that we are letting them (ANA/ANP) take the lead in fighting for and dying for their own country's security. The other alternative is for us to continue to hold their hands and do what they should be doing...
The view from the helmet cam is very narrow, in that you cant see everything else that went on getting to the objective, why they are there, whether this was a follow-on/flex target, etc... It doesnt provide a good view of what was going on with respect to security covering the assault forces movement either.
And, your point? Quite often guys are forced to move distances, without cover, greater than they would like due to a berm, compound wall, fields, etc surrounding the TGT structure...
As for daylight vs. dark, again we dont know the details of why...
I agree that movement from the LCAC position shouldn't be taken lightly. Speed is security...
I would say you are assuming they couldn't be viewed from the other sides of the structure or that they had time to study the structure from multiple angles prior to moving on it. Most mud huts in Afghanistan, Iraq, countries in the horn of Africa, Lebanon, South American, Phillipines, etc... have holes in them from which people can peer out, on all sides, thus making approach from any direction open to view.
I disagree.
The Afghani's rifle is in the position it should be, not flagging the guy in front of him. I dont know about you but I dont particularly like having a rifle pointed in my back (or any part of my body) especially when its a jundi holding the rifle. Your methods may vary, best of luck to you if you do allow it...
First person in the door isnt an SF guy, its an ANA soldier (BTW, operators answer phones).
Not sure what point you are trying to make here...
Do you know who made entry into the structure behind the couple ANA and one SF soldier? Do you know who is securing the perimeter of the structure from the outside? If not you are again assuming.
Furthermore, and I return to question your experiences - how many Afghan villagers you have interacted with? I dont know any who understand spoken English commands. As such from time to time it requires hand and arm signals to get one's point across without physically moving people where you want them, which would also require removing a hand from the weapon. Giving hand signals is common when working in the places we work with those we work with and against.
Honestly I have nothing negative to say about it; I wasnt there and dont know the details that led to what we viewed on the cam.
I would admonish you to, when you dont know the details, avoid criticizing others actions based on the aforementioned lack of information needed to make such judgments. It is unprofessional and unproductive.
That said, you saw what its like on a day-to-day basis working with and fighting along side host/partner nation forces. Sometimes things go as planned other times not so much, but it is what it is... Doing this day-in/day-out isnt for everyone.
How many rotations or how many months/years do you have working with a host/partner nation military/police force in an active combat zone where they are the main effort and you are there to support and advice them?
How much time do you have in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or any other third world shit hole conducting operations? It doesn't seem as though you have much if any given some of these questions/comments you are making.
Regardless, I will entertain your musings, within reason, as I have been in this situation a time or two...
Common sense approach in that we are letting them (ANA/ANP) take the lead in fighting for and dying for their own country's security. The other alternative is for us to continue to hold their hands and do what they should be doing...
The view from the helmet cam is very narrow, in that you cant see everything else that went on getting to the objective, why they are there, whether this was a follow-on/flex target, etc... It doesnt provide a good view of what was going on with respect to security covering the assault forces movement either.
And, your point? Quite often guys are forced to move distances, without cover, greater than they would like due to a berm, compound wall, fields, etc surrounding the TGT structure...
As for daylight vs. dark, again we dont know the details of why...
I agree that movement from the LCAC position shouldn't be taken lightly. Speed is security...
I would say you are assuming they couldn't be viewed from the other sides of the structure or that they had time to study the structure from multiple angles prior to moving on it. Most mud huts in Afghanistan, Iraq, countries in the horn of Africa, Lebanon, South American, Phillipines, etc... have holes in them from which people can peer out, on all sides, thus making approach from any direction open to view.
I disagree.
The Afghani's rifle is in the position it should be, not flagging the guy in front of him. I dont know about you but I dont particularly like having a rifle pointed in my back (or any part of my body) especially when its a jundi holding the rifle. Your methods may vary, best of luck to you if you do allow it...
First person in the door isnt an SF guy, its an ANA soldier (BTW, operators answer phones).
Not sure what point you are trying to make here...
Do you know who made entry into the structure behind the couple ANA and one SF soldier? Do you know who is securing the perimeter of the structure from the outside? If not you are again assuming.
Furthermore, and I return to question your experiences - how many Afghan villagers you have interacted with? I dont know any who understand spoken English commands. As such from time to time it requires hand and arm signals to get one's point across without physically moving people where you want them, which would also require removing a hand from the weapon. Giving hand signals is common when working in the places we work with those we work with and against.
Honestly I have nothing negative to say about it; I wasnt there and dont know the details that led to what we viewed on the cam.
I would admonish you to, when you dont know the details, avoid criticizing others actions based on the aforementioned lack of information needed to make such judgments. It is unprofessional and unproductive.
That said, you saw what its like on a day-to-day basis working with and fighting along side host/partner nation forces. Sometimes things go as planned other times not so much, but it is what it is... Doing this day-in/day-out isnt for everyone.
Mike I understand your view and break down of the video, but have you ever lead a team/squad of LN Military especially Iraqi/Afghan? I have and in gunfights after a month in a half of training them and some of worst places of Baghdad. I would not question the SF'er here he did what he had to do and he was very lucky, but I can tell you that when bullets start to fly and your group of ICDC-ING run away leaving you to deal with the problem its a very fucked feeling....
I'll write out an armchair QB review later.....
I'll write out an armchair QB review later.....
I say given the fact that the ANA dude turned and ran, which got him killed... and Mr. 18 series went in and kicked ass... ain't nothing wrong. the ANA dudes screwed up, but they're new at this and admittedly aren't the most high-speed.
Remember: In a raid, they pick the place, you pick the time.
You can only reduce the obstacles and barriers that they put on the objective so much. There's no magic way to be able to reduce the distance from the berm wall, to the objective's entrance. So that argument is moot. ANA being barrel down when a guy is moving in front of them? Sounds like a good thing to me, I would rather they be in front of ME but that's just due to my personal quality time with ANA in the past.
Taclight on? Dude, you run into an unlit building from a sunny trashcanistan day and tell me you ain't gonna use your taclight to be able to see wtf is going on, in a building.
1 entrance to the building that they ripped down. SF dude CLEARED THE ENTIRE BUILDING and he's still got muzzle orientation at Habeeb and Derpa Durka when he gives them the hand and arm signal to lay down, so given the OBJ is secure at this point and he's a half second to being able to drop the hammer on the guys with CLEAR HANDS... hey, I'd buy him beer. In fact if anyone knows this guy and he ever makes it up to alaska, tell him that.
To be totally honest, this looks just like one of many raids I did over there up until the point that you have an afghani doing something. I mean, You know X is there now. You don't know if he'll be there overnight, and you don't know if he'll roll out. You don't have the people to be able to just plop a LPOP up on that shit so guess what... Fuck it, we'll do it live.
Remember: In a raid, they pick the place, you pick the time.
You can only reduce the obstacles and barriers that they put on the objective so much. There's no magic way to be able to reduce the distance from the berm wall, to the objective's entrance. So that argument is moot. ANA being barrel down when a guy is moving in front of them? Sounds like a good thing to me, I would rather they be in front of ME but that's just due to my personal quality time with ANA in the past.
Taclight on? Dude, you run into an unlit building from a sunny trashcanistan day and tell me you ain't gonna use your taclight to be able to see wtf is going on, in a building.
1 entrance to the building that they ripped down. SF dude CLEARED THE ENTIRE BUILDING and he's still got muzzle orientation at Habeeb and Derpa Durka when he gives them the hand and arm signal to lay down, so given the OBJ is secure at this point and he's a half second to being able to drop the hammer on the guys with CLEAR HANDS... hey, I'd buy him beer. In fact if anyone knows this guy and he ever makes it up to alaska, tell him that.
To be totally honest, this looks just like one of many raids I did over there up until the point that you have an afghani doing something. I mean, You know X is there now. You don't know if he'll be there overnight, and you don't know if he'll roll out. You don't have the people to be able to just plop a LPOP up on that shit so guess what... Fuck it, we'll do it live.
Hey guys... nothing of personal....I surrender....I just responded to surgicalcric's question
no one is questioning the value of special forces...i'm just trying to stimulate the contradictory to our board... i'm very sorry if I offended anyone with my ignorance.
Mike (the smooth operator)
Mike:
None of us took it personally. Most of us enjoy conversation and hearing from people with different perspectives. What we don't particularly care for is arm chair quarterbacking especially when all the facts surrounding an incident aren't known.
In the future you would do better to note your frame of reference (where/when you encountered a dis/similar issue) when questioning the actions of men on the battlefield, while you aren't.
And if you would, for my edification, answer the questions, in my previous response, about your experience(s) so I can better weigh responses to future topics you may be posting on.
Thanks,
Crip
It's okay to critique a video like this for training value (as in LEO involved shootings). The problem is, we don't have all the context of what went down, so its pointless to critique the vid other than 'whoa, intense footage'.
Only thing you can conclusively see is the Afghan dude got beat to the draw and panicked, and the U.S. guy took out the threat. You can never know how you'll react unless you've been there, and the most trained/experienced guy just has to screw up, or get unlucky one time to be in a similar situation.
May he RIP, and hopefully his loss and the bravery of the (assuming he's a) SF guy inspires them to keep fighting the Taliban fucks.
Only thing you can conclusively see is the Afghan dude got beat to the draw and panicked, and the U.S. guy took out the threat. You can never know how you'll react unless you've been there, and the most trained/experienced guy just has to screw up, or get unlucky one time to be in a similar situation.
May he RIP, and hopefully his loss and the bravery of the (assuming he's a) SF guy inspires them to keep fighting the Taliban fucks.
Crip,
(Administrators, probably this is my last post on this board..Banhammer is always ready... I'm very sorry, because here I have found special guys, virtual friends and (why not) fun....) well.. what I want to tell you is: I only asked myself, with my first post, if we have to consider the entire action how SOF action (usually SOF are involved into special operations), for me (I insist for me only) no. You asked me to be more specific, and I did. Now... probably due to the board, probably (sure) due to my ridicule english (my english sucks), if I gave you the impression of sapientone apologize to you (and I've already done)... but if you think you can decide to respond to my future topics just based on my experience... .. with all my due respect... don't do it... you are green ribbon... I'm only black... your military training is bigger, your experience is bigger, probably (sure) you are clever than me... but I only know this... I would not have allowed my boys to approach and enter in that afghan shithole in that way, this is the fact.
Respectfully
Mike
Goodbye, cruel world
I'm leaving you today
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye
Goodbye, all you people
There's nothing you can say
To make me change my mind
Goodbye
(from "The Wall)
No need to be so dramatic, group hug everybody :)
Wow...I didn't see that coming. Please step away from the Lifetime channel and let the drama go.
Prior to responding to your message questioning the actions of the guys in the field "doing it live" I perused your posts but couldn't find reference to your experience(s) in Iraq, Astan, Africa, etc... admittedly I scanned through them quickly and so I could have missed it; nonetheless after not finding what I was looking for so I asked.
I wasn't calling you out, simply asking you to frame your posts with what you have seen on the two way range so those of us responding can try to see things from your point of view or at least have a better understanding about where you may be coming from with your comments/questions. I do respond to people, who post critiques about tactical situation and otherwise, based on their experience. If you go back over some of the older posts here you will find most of the SOF/combat arms guys here do the same thing. We share a lot of advice and opinion on this board and over time we come to know each other (US and otherwise), know where the others are coming from and what experience they base their opinions and how/under what conditions those have been shaped.
However, when guys step out of their lane and interject into posts they are told to return to their area of expertise. To be honest I have given you more leeway than I do most because I understand your English isn't the greatest.
All that said, you need to grow some thicker skin.
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