US troops 'vulnerable to back pain'

[Diamondback 2/2]

My big argument here is the body armor, 28lbs is fucking retarded. Our armor needs to be around 10lbs to even out the load. If they did this I think you would see a lot of the current rise in back injuries start to go down…

I agree with what you are saying FF, but I also think it needs to be a command driven issue or policy. TL’s, SL’s and PSG’s doing PCC/PCI should be pulling all that extra not needed gear off and tossing that shit. After joe get’s his gear tossed a few times he will stop bringing that extra stuff…

 

[AWP]

JAB, I don't disagree with you on the armor issue. We're so terrified of casualties we've turned our men into walking tanks; Medieval knights would be proud of the DoD....

Having never served in an infantry unit, I can't speak to how they determine what is needed for a patrol, mission, whatever. As an outsider looking in and having been fortunate (I think) to have gone to an NCO-producing school and an officer-producinig one, I believe in my heart that we're preparinig our future leaders to micromanage. Standardized packing lists are drilled into our heads from day one in the Army so it is only natural for leaders at any level to fall back on that. And maybe units have a basic list of equipment and Joe is adding unnecessary gear, but I would not be surprised if some units had a packing list better suited for BNCOC, WLS (or whatever PLDC is called these days), OCS, etc. rather than an operational unit.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

That’s why I was saying TL’s, SL’s and PSG’s. The “O’s” set the policy as to cut the gear to mission essentials and the NCO’s do the cutting at the platoon or lower level. I am not looking to have a new “mission packing list” from brigade coming down. I am looking for a “smart policy” given me more authority to cut non-essential equipment.

As for the Infantry, ideally you want to be able to set up an AA/PB to store your extra long-term gear and just rock your battle-rattle to the objective. But in the modern battlefield it becomes hard to do so, with worries of gear falling into enemy hands (blah-blah-blah). Personally I think the light Infantry skills have been degraded by a lack of application.

The 7-8 was GTG and offered a “how too” guide to the PL/PSG/SL, but somewhere someone thought they were smarter. :doh:

Body armor is necessary for many “Infantry missions” but not all missions. The same way a ruck fits in, but not in all. My personal thoughts on basic missions are:

Urban Patrol: Body armor, LCE, water and maybe 1 MRE depending on length.

Ambush: rock as much fire power as you can and fuck the rest.

Rural Patrol: LCE, water and maybe 1 MRE

Assault/Raid: Armor, LCE, Water and mission required equipment.

OP/LP: LCE, Water, MRE’s and extra batters for optics and radios (assault pack).

Recon: See OP/LP with maybe extra ammo/ pyro depending on length.

Force Protection: Full PPE down to the goggles and gloves…

Now depending on sizes of the mission (Squad, Platoon or Company) will set the amounts of added gear, but joe wanting an Ipod or DVD palyer/ Laptop is not needed. Joe wanting those extra snacks and pogy-bait is not needed. Strapping 28 pounds of armor on joe for a 20K/ 3 day patrol is not needed. We need to be smart in how we use our gear and learn that mobility can be just as protective, if not more protective then armor.

Food for thought, the average insurgent is rocking an AK, maybe 2 to 3 mags and very little water/food. Wearing rags and flip-flops and he is still banging and eluding you. How in the fuck can you keep up with him if you’re packing 65+ lbs of gear, with out the use of helo’s and gun trucks? You can’t! And as long as they keep going where our trucks and helos can’t go, we will never kill them…

 

[AWP]

That’s why I was saying TL’s, SL’s and PSG’s.

I get the rest of your post and in general agree with it, bit not the above. At the risk of really getting off topic the authority and latitude of the NCo is eroding with passing day. "Year of the NCO" may sound great on paper and on the AFN commercials with the corny pseudofolk music in the background, but I see too many senior NCOs doing what the O's want or what they think the O's want. We aren't training our O's to trust their NCO's so why should some O-1/ O-2 allow his PSG to determine the loadout for a mission?

I'm not arguing that O's are smarter, I'm arguing that the culture of the Army isn't going to allow your load to decrease. Realistically, we're talking about an Army with reflective belts in an area where soldiers draw combat pay....you really think some CPT or LT is going to trust his career to a "lowly" enlisted man?

I agree with your post, I just don't see it happening.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Very true in all aspects! But you can't blame a guy for dreaming...

I do believe its a double edged blade though, in order for NCO's to regain the trust from the CO/PL he or she needs to prove they can be trusted. I have had very few PL's question my judgment, however I have had company commanders get so far in my buisness that my position was that of a another joe. The O's are not going to work on fixing the problem, only the NCO's can fix the problem and it starts by controlling what you can and by being the best leader you can at your level. Tacically speaking squad and team level are out of any officers lane and that PL should never be micro managing that SL/TL (Sgt this is your mission, now make it happen).