There are actually 2 CAV Troops in the R&S Squadrons under the BFSBs.
And there has been a lot of confusion with the MTOEs when they brought the LRS Companies under the Squadrons and adding to it several were allowed to keep their lineage!
19D vs 11B
- Thread starter Fate Price
- Start date
There are actually 2 CAV Troops in the R&S Squadrons under the BFSBs.
And there has been a lot of confusion with the MTOEs when they brought the LRS Companies under the Squadrons and adding to it several were allowed to keep their lineage!
Texas_Medic
Verified SOF
Hell I was part of a Cav Squadron but in an infantry company, not LRS the DRT
, and our SCO (Squadron Commanding Officer) could not grasp the fact that we were not a line infantry unit, he kept asking about our 240s (we didn't have any), but were an infantry reconnaissance company. Crazy part, the squadron CSM wanted all of us infantry NCOs to wear stetsons. It did not go over to well amongst the ranks.
, and our SCO (Squadron Commanding Officer) could not grasp the fact that we were not a line infantry unit, he kept asking about our 240s (we didn't have any), but were an infantry reconnaissance company. Crazy part, the squadron CSM wanted all of us infantry NCOs to wear stetsons. It did not go over to well amongst the ranks.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Cooler than a Beret! My SCO is Infantry and I'm like
I don't think anyone is saying that 19Ds are useless. I think that JAB was saying that they were under utilized. In my limited opinion the LRS program in the Army has been flailing for awhile because most commanders don't know what to do with them and they can't figure out their MTOE. Long range reconnaissance is a tough job to have and it really requires a cradle to grave MOS field. The only reason it is not a SOF unit is because it does not belong to SOCOM. It's the same mission, with the same risks and should have the same requirements, funding and screening process.
There needs to be a like and agree option. I often wonder if LRS would be better off in the BCT, with it written into doctrine that they are NOT to be used as a QRF. Not enough slots to justify it's own MOS unless the concept was expanded and included all DRT and battalion scouts. I partially blame SF for the near death of LRS as well. In the 80's and 90's when CF were getting a bigger share of the pie, SF really sold and expanded the DR mission to the point where the difference between DR and LRS was hard to see.
Reed
Probably going to get some hate on that, but I hope not.
A couple of points:
1) I agree with Teufel regarding "cradle to grave" and if the field doesn't warrant an MOS, then an ASI or SQI should exist instead of the "V." By doing either (MOS or ASI) you can restrict who is assigned to what slot, whereas now they are basically 11BxP or 11BxV slots....that's a pretty diverse pool of candidates who will have no LRS background whatsoever. LRS needs a school and a standardized selection and assessment program instead of the ad hoc stuff units do.
2) SF has always had the SR or Strategic Reconnaisance mission and if people don't understand that...well, we're back to poorly educated leaders. Besides, I thought that LRS was supposed to be a division or Corps asset from 0 to 50 miles and SF was anything beyond that (more or less, I'm trying to keep this simple without involving the 75ths capabilities). Also, if you consider SF doctrine, they wouldn't report to a division commander, so if they were tasked with something inside of that 50 mile mark...too bad for the division LRS assets. Again, keeping this simple without dragging along JSOA's and the like.
3) Add environments like Iraq and Afghanistan where there are no 50 mile limits because there is no FEBA and you really have a problem.
I'll take the conventional Army to task on this one: this whole issue rises and falls on leadership and it is failing the LRS mission and soldiers. I find it ironic that commanders scream for intel and then hamstring one of their primary ORGANIC intel gathering organizations.
Texas_Medic
Verified SOF
Hit the nail on the head. Most, and I use the term with biased opinion, BN-BDE commanders do not know how to use organic intelligence assets. Same issue I pointed out earlier with my experience in the RSTA. We were used as either line infantry or PSD stuff, not anything related to finding bad guys. Some of my friends still in LRS, both AD and NG have been suffering most of the same issues, as far as the PSD tasking is concerned. Maybe I missed something but I am pretty sure that PSD isn't covered in the POI for RSLC. Please correct me if I am wrong.
You are not wrong.
Reed
19D here I can clear some of this up. If you want to go LRS you need to be an 11B, that's it. Cav scouts conduct reconnaissance operations within a scout platoon, with vehicles or dismounted. Per doctrine we are operating anywhere from 5-10 K in front of the forward line of troops, the missions fall into one of two categories, reconnaissance and security.
LRS teams operate in 6 man teams way past the FLOT, they are all airborne qualified 11B's they conduct strictly reconnaissance missions. They are the only non SOF Army unit M/TOED HALO/HAHO.
The easiest way think about it is who are these units supplying intelligence to, as a 19D in a RSTA or ARS squadron you will be conducting missions to provide the brigade CO with reconnaissance he needs. The LRS troop in a BfSB is conducting missions for a Corps level element.
LRS teams operate in 6 man teams way past the FLOT, they are all airborne qualified 11B's they conduct strictly reconnaissance missions. They are the only non SOF Army unit M/TOED HALO/HAHO.
The easiest way think about it is who are these units supplying intelligence to, as a 19D in a RSTA or ARS squadron you will be conducting missions to provide the brigade CO with reconnaissance he needs. The LRS troop in a BfSB is conducting missions for a Corps level element.
Why do you want to be in a LRS Unit?
Raiderfit
Unverified
I am not too versed on the Army's capabilities. But I can say that the mech scouts that I have worked with were 180 degree different than the rucksack carrying reconnaissance elements of the Army. Not better or worse..just different. The real question you want to ask yourself is:
Do I want to drive the weight around or carry it on my back...
We need both.
Also, agree that don't get sucked in by the recruiter pitch that you can do Reconnaissance in SF or Ranger Bats.... remember the attrition rate. You don't want to be the guy who wasn't prepared to live the life of a cook...not that being a cook is bad...but it is when you thought you were going to spend your time doing green side patrols on a recon element.
Do I want to drive the weight around or carry it on my back...
We need both.
Also, agree that don't get sucked in by the recruiter pitch that you can do Reconnaissance in SF or Ranger Bats.... remember the attrition rate. You don't want to be the guy who wasn't prepared to live the life of a cook...not that being a cook is bad...but it is when you thought you were going to spend your time doing green side patrols on a recon element.
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BLUF: LRS Companies / Detachments should have never left the Division / Corps level. They work for the DIV /Corps Commander "Go out and find me something to destroy." CAV SQDRs have too much hands on the Company. Many SCOs don't realize that when they get deployed etc... their either going to a MG or LTG. If I was king for a day I would re-implement a third Troop for added Combat / Recon Power and push the Infantry LRS back up to a MI BN as their a HUMIT asset or Corps Level like it was during Vietnam.
"It ain't broke...don't fix it."
RLTW
CPT Lee
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
So as part of our capstone field event we were conducting a zone reconnaissance mission, when I briefed to my CO that my OP teams would dismount 2k away he said to me: that's a bit far. And I said to him: Sir, that's the minimum distance per doctrine that we should dismount. He's an infantry guy, he has embraced our mission, but not well versed in the tactics as the previous SCO was also infantry and didn't really push the knowing of doctrine upon the troop commanders. Our current SCO is extremely doctrinally correct and trying to do this field problem as such, it's a kinetic brigade level movement to contact when we kick off after this weekend.
I think his primary concern was time, as we our training is limited by a test, and 4/24hrs are dedicated to data harvests. Another thing I've run into is the fact that the Army hasn't pushed a lot of dudes to our brigade, so I will be a PL for a very long time, which is fine with me since I didn't get that opportunity at 3-1 ID. A heavy recce unit in MATVs and MaxxPros…fun times and shenanigans for all.
I think his primary concern was time, as we our training is limited by a test, and 4/24hrs are dedicated to data harvests. Another thing I've run into is the fact that the Army hasn't pushed a lot of dudes to our brigade, so I will be a PL for a very long time, which is fine with me since I didn't get that opportunity at 3-1 ID. A heavy recce unit in MATVs and MaxxPros…fun times and shenanigans for all.
I can't imagine dismounting any closer if the intent is to establish an OP. 2k even seems like it might be cutting it a bit close, depending on the terrain.
Cav recon drive around until you hear tink tink tink on the hull, select reverse, send off the grid reference to Regiment, go find another area to drive around in...
METT-TC dependent brother, I've set OP's in Baghdad where we literally jumped out the back of a LMTV in a patrol two houses down from where we set up.
Open rural area, give me mucho time and distance, urban give me sneaky and fast.
That’s interesting, most of our urban raids, were in A/O’s we didn’t want to be beating feet at all. I can’t quantify the amount of small arms fire and frag’s that would get brought down on us as we would exfil particular neighborhoods after an early morning raid. Generally we avoided foot patrols unless we had a curfew being enforced and we could completely limit the population’s ability to move. Nothing like being blacked out on a dismounted patrol, and getting hit with some high beams from a white Opal as Mohammad & Omar were heading home drunk from the local shindig.
But anyway, I get where you are coming from, it just didn’t normally work well for us back then in that particular A/O.
That’s interesting, most of our urban raids, were in A/O’s we didn’t want to be beating feet at all. I can’t quantify the amount of small arms fire and frag’s that would get brought down on us as we would exfil particular neighborhoods after an early morning raid. Generally we avoided foot patrols unless we had a curfew being enforced and we could completely limit the population’s ability to move. Nothing like being blacked out on a dismounted patrol, and getting hit with some high beams from a white Opal as Mohammad & Omar were heading home drunk from the local shindig.
That's a good point about the curfew, we worked almost exclusively at night so that is a different situation entirely from what you were doing. But on that note... if you are heading to an OP, it's my opinion that you should be conducting the movement at night if it is in urban terrain regardless. I wouldn't feel comfortable with half the population in a city block seeing me move to my OP.
