3 Face Hazing Charges After Marine Commits Suicide

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
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Did they go overboard? Maybe, I wasn't there so "stomping" could be a bit objective I suppose. The real stories for me at least are 1) is that this shitbag repeatedly fell asleep on duty so I can't shed a tear for his death and 2) What's the line between corrective training and hazing these days? Sheesh.

Like anything, I'm sure there's more to the story though.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/0...after-marine-commits-suicide/?test=latestnews

KANEOHE BAY, Hawaii – A military court hearing for three Marines accused of hazing a fellow Marine who later committed suicide in Afghanistan focused Thursday on whether the accused intended to harm the deceased or discipline him so he would stop falling asleep while on watch duty.

Orozco, 22, allegedly ordered Lew "to do pushups, side planks, leg lifts with a sandbag, while wearing full personal protective equipment and pouring sand onto his face," according to the cruelty and maltreatment charge against Orozco. He is also charged with assault for kicking Lew in the head and stomping on his back.
 

Marauder06

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There are differences between on-the-spot corrections, corrective training, punishment, and brutality. Pouring sand in a guy's face andkcicking & stomping him (if that's what happened) to get him to perform? :-| Hard to see how that could be justified.
 

DA SWO

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There are differences between on-the-spot corrections, corrective training, punishment, and brutality. Pouring sand in a guy's face andkcicking & stomping him (if that's what happened) to get him to perform? :-| Hard to see how that could be justified.
Agree.
 

x SF med

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WTF ever happened to: "I will diligently guard my post until properly relieved"?
Sorry, in a combat zone "falling asleep multiple times while on guard duty" should have landed the young Marine right on the fucking street with a dishonorable discharge for dereliction of duty, after a few years in a nice military greybar hotel. Hazing? The friggin kid offed himself because he was going to get thrown out under exactly those circumstances - he got more chances than he deserved, asleep on guard duty... again... ASLEEP ON FUCKING GUARD DUTY IN A FUCKING COMBAT ZONE... luckily he's the only one that's doing the dirt nap, a lot more REAL Marines could have been killed or injured due to his actions.

No sympathy for the young Marine, but condolences to his family.

Oh, btw, I believe suicide is a cowards answer to problems - and taking your own life in circumstances that will allow a mission to be accomplished (injured, or imminent capture with info in your head that's important) and save other members of your Team is not suicide.
 

AWP

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The attack on Bagram last year? How do you think those guys made it on base? You see...someone was asleep in their tower.

I feel for the deceased's family, but he royally screwed the pooch.

This whole story is filled with Fail. It breaks my heart to be honest.
 

SkrewzLoose

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*Best Sean Connery voice* "I'll take 'Violations of Article 113 of the UCMJ for 800, Alex, you fat slob."
 

Manolito

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I was in the Navy and their 11 general orders did not allow sleeping. I looked up the Marine general orders and they do not allow sleeping.

General Orders for Sentries

There are 11 general orders and they are the same wherever and whenever a Marine is on interior guard duty. All Marines are required to know and memorize these general orders and be able to recite them whenever they are called upon to do so.
1. To take charge of this post and all government property in view.

2. To walk my post in a military manner, keeping always on the alert, and observing everything that takes place within sight or hearing.

3. To report all violations of orders I am instructed to enforce.

4. To repeat all calls from posts more distant from the guardhouse than my own.

5. To quit my post only when properly relieved.

6. To recieve, obey, and pass on to the sentry who relieves me, all orders from the Commanding Officer, Officer Of the Day, and officers, and noncomissioned officers of the guard only.

7. To talk to no one except in the line of duty.

8. To give the alarm in case of fire or disorder.

9. To call the corporal of the guard in any case not covered by instructions.

10. To salute all officers, and all colors and standards not cased.

11. To be especially watchful at night and, during the time for challenging, to challenge all persons on or near my post, and to allow no one to pass without proper authority.

12. To insure I know the other 11 General orders:ROFLMAO:
During Viet Nam we had a guy steal money and the CO offered him a courtmartial in Saigon or return to his section. He took the first Helo out of the area. I for one think sleeping while on watch in a war zone is worse than most disciplinary problems.
Respectfully,
Bill
Bill
 

fox1371

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I would be curious to know the exact conditions of the situation. I do think that there was a different way the situation could have been handled. I had the exact same issue with one of my Marines who was refusing to go on patrols and was falling asleep on post. After I exhausted just about every means of punishment I could think of, I had him sent back up to the main FOB to be a paper b*tch. I don't like dumping problems onto somebody else, however in country and at a patrol base is not the time and place for that kind of thing. That and taking a kick to the back while you've got a vest with plates in doesn't hurt...I mean common.
 

Headshot

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Just like people who exercise their cowardly disgruntled driver shit were most likely angry about something else long before they vented it on you, it's too hard to say what was really eating at this guy, and too easy to blame it on the last circumstance before his cowardice took over. There's no telling how long he had been contemplating this. People don't just wake up one day having never thought of suicide and off themselves, it is a slow erosion over time with many subtle signs. Is there the proverbial straw in most circumstances, yes...absolutely. But to blame the entire episode on one event that happened nearest to ToD is unrealistic and archaic at best. Have they still not learned anything about soldiers who display signs? Chronic fatigue and sleepiness are tell signs of depression. Everyone gets tired, but if someone is falling asleep that much that it requires a monkey stomping, then there are some underlying issues.

On the flip side of the coin, I can remember guys having plastic bags put on their heads and PT'd by the Spec4 mafia until they passed out. I also remember turning the heat up in the barracks and waxing the hallway and making nubes caterpillar crawl in their newly issued fart sacks until the floor was polished. Good times............good times.
 

Chopstick

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I was thinking along those lines HS. If someone is literally falling asleep all the time perhaps there is an underlying physiological or psychological issue? I dont know that beating the shit out of someone and constant abuse is really the way to rectify or get to the root of the problem. If the guy was such a d bag and an endangerment to others why wasnt he just put in the brig or whatever its called? Why wasnt he given a medical and/or psychological evaluation? Why was he left in situations that jeopardized others? Its pretty easy to sit in judgement and just take the word of others as fact in all of this. But I think its a bit of a jump to a conclusion to just pronounce the deceased "a little bitch" without ALL of the FACTS. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? I also think it inappropriate to dog pile a dead man. That kid was some one's son and I think it is disgraceful that perhaps his family might see that posted on this board. Its not outside the realm of possibility. So if anyone feels the need to dogpile, go ahead and dogpile me. Im at least alive and available for rebuttal. And yes I am biased. The av a tar over there on the left says it all.
 

Florida173

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My stance wholly depends on whether he committed suicide because he realized the gravity of his mistake or because of the corrective measures. Either way he was a coward.
 

Chopstick

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Fair enough but dont you think the term "coward" can be spread around? I think it would apply to those committing the hazing as well as anyone in charge that was aware of it and not standing up TO the people committing the hazing and not standing up FOR the individual or individuals being victimized by the hazing. I could also say lazy for not taking steps but turning a blind eye as well as allowing others to be put in harms way by placing a weak link as the line of defense. But thats just me..a stupid civilian. WTF do I know?
 

Purple

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Sleep can sometimes mask physiological (sleep deprivation, hypoglycemia, etc) and psychological (depression) medical issues.

Personally, I don't understand suicide (with the exception of ending an insufferable terminal illness) but don't think anybody who isn't suicidal can really understand whatever it is that causes someone to think they have no other recourse than to take their own life.
Sleeping on guard duty in a combat zone was a court martial offense - don't know what the 'norm' is now.

Nothing worse than getting caught 'dozing' when standing watch or in an ambush position and - if feasible - have someone take your weapon and then pop off a few rounds or toss a grenade - waking up to the sound of what you think is an attack and not being able to locate your weapon is a lesson one never forgets if you survive it.

We used to carry a large red permanent marker and when we caught someone dozing in training, draw a horizontal stripe across their neck just under the jaw line to simulate a slit throat, and then monitor them until they came awake and rejoined their peers. Nothing like the reaction they received from their peers when they saw the red line across the guy's throat and they knew he'd been asleep on post and had jeopardized their lives and mission. The marker wouldn't wash off for a few days, either, and served as a VGA for all.

If this was not a first offense and his unit was concerned about him, I don't understand why he was not 'buddied up' or more closely supervised until he could either be trusted, examined for any extenuating medical problems, or removed pending UCMJ action.

Maybe we'll eventually hear 'the rest of the story' here - or maybe not. :-/

And so it goes...

Purple
 

MacK

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Just like people who exercise their cowardly disgruntled driver shit were most likely angry about something else long before they vented it on you, it's too hard to say what was really eating at this guy, and too easy to blame it on the last circumstance before his cowardice took over. There's no telling how long he had been contemplating this. People don't just wake up one day having never thought of suicide and off themselves, it is a slow erosion over time with many subtle signs. Is there the proverbial straw in most circumstances, yes...absolutely. But to blame the entire episode on one event that happened nearest to ToD is unrealistic and archaic at best.

Exactly. My brother is in the same battalion that this Marine was in and he said that they guy wasn't a bad person but a few months into the deployment he just started losing it. The repercussions for falling asleep on guard duty were the final straw for him. He was 5 months in to his first 7 month deployment. He was the only death in that battalion on that deployment.
 

Florida173

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Fair enough but dont you think the term "coward" can be spread around? I think it would apply to those committing the hazing as well as anyone in charge that was aware of it and not standing up TO the people committing the hazing and not standing up FOR the individual or individuals being victimized by the hazing. I could also say lazy for not taking steps but turning a blind eye as well as allowing others to be put in harms way by placing a weak link as the line of defense. But thats just me..a stupid civilian. WTF do I know?

I think we would be saying something different if his actions caused the death of his fellow marines. The repercussions of falling asleep on guard duty should be severe. Although I don't condone the "hazing," I do condone the policing up your own.
 

SkrewzLoose

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Under article 113 of the UCMJ, improper watch standing during a time of war is punishable by death. Shit I remember from boot camp a few months ago...
 
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