104TN
Verified Military
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 921
I understand you're a Marine's mom, but everything else in this thread aside - the fact he took his own life makes him a coward in my book.
I feel for his family.
3 Face Hazing Charges After Marine Commits Suicide
- Thread starter AWP
- Start date
I understand you're a Marine's mom, but everything else in this thread aside - the fact he took his own life makes him a coward in my book.
I feel for his family.
I don’t know if I would have smoked a Joe for falling asleep on guard, I think I would have pushed paper work and made him pull standing guard in the worst place I could find, while I did periodic checks on him. I would have taken every bit of free time away and had, but trying to smoke a guy for falling asleep is a bit “basic training”.
I am a big fan of the corrective training fit’s the fuck up (i.e. if you fuck up on patrol, I’ll have you doing IMT’s until you pass out, you fuck up on a range or have an ND, weapon drills until you pass out). Just scuffing someone with PT doesn’t work IMHO, I have better results with fixing the problem with doing it right until they can’t take it anymore. Thats not to say I won't drop someone for small shit though.
As for hazing being the reason this Marine killed himself, I doubt it. It normally takes a bit more than that, like underlining mental disorders to begin with. I tend to agree with some of the other that the dude was weak and tapped out and now his brothers are going to take the hit for it.
I am a big fan of the corrective training fit’s the fuck up (i.e. if you fuck up on patrol, I’ll have you doing IMT’s until you pass out, you fuck up on a range or have an ND, weapon drills until you pass out). Just scuffing someone with PT doesn’t work IMHO, I have better results with fixing the problem with doing it right until they can’t take it anymore. Thats not to say I won't drop someone for small shit though.
As for hazing being the reason this Marine killed himself, I doubt it. It normally takes a bit more than that, like underlining mental disorders to begin with. I tend to agree with some of the other that the dude was weak and tapped out and now his brothers are going to take the hit for it.
This. I personally dont think that anyone that commits suicide for any reason is of sound mind. I sincerely feel for anyone that finds him or herself in such a dark place. I really think they are truly mentally ill. Of course anyone is entitled to their opinion but calling someone a coward and condemning them is pretty judgmental. You have to think sometimes.."there but for the Grace of God go I". I think victims of suicide for whatever reason deserve pity and yes I do feel for the family too Rick.
See, THAT is "corrective training," consequences fit the offense. What was reportedly done to the Marine in this case was at least "punishment," which is in a completely different category, and most likely "cruelty" and "assault" on top of that. Corrective training is what you're supposed to do as leaders, if you want to inflict "punishment" get into a job where you have UCMJ authority. I think in some cases an on-the-spot correction that has Joe do kind of limited physical activity is appropriate, but for significant transgressions, especially if they're repeated, you really need to look into it a little closer. This will usually be part of legitimate corrective training or will come out when you press your chain of command for punishment.
RetPara
SOF Support
I'm seeing Team and Squad Ldr, but where the hell is the PL and Plt Sgt in all of this? Let alone the company CoC. I'm not looking to take scalps... at some point the physical punishment crossed the line into abuse and assault. Falling asleep on guard duty in combat... yeah; I can see smacking him. If this was not an incident, but continual for a time frame. There are more in the CoC that dropped the ball.
HOLLiS
Verified Military
My thoughts too, The guy, if this was common practice for him to fall asleep, was in the wrong job or should not have been in the Marine Corps. There are people, for what ever reason, should never be in the military unless for canon fodder. We had a guy who refused to carry a rifle, they made him the professional shitter burner for the battalion. I am not against "chain locker" discipline, though it is clearly a big no no now.
I don't know if I would call him a coward. Suicide generally happens when a person comes to a junction where they are both helpless and hopeless. The guy could have had some kind of sleep disorder. Maybe in his mind, he knew he would fall asleep again and that could cost the lives of other Marines. A failure in the world of information could have had something to do with this. Maybe the guy did not know he could request medical help, and psych help from his Corpsman or Chaplain. Command should have been more proactive, or maybe they were and were trapped in this situation too.
Florida173
SOF Support
I am not sure what part you are talking about, but to be clear as an NCO I don't believe it is my job to "punish" a soldier; I may carry out a punishment as ordered by my CoC. But ut is not within the scope of my duties to personally determine punishments and enact them without approval of the CoC. I might recommend and the CoC may say “do it” but that’s about as close as it gets.
If I have a soldier who has committed a crime or broken policy/regulation, depending on the offense made, I will counsel him and make my recommendation (i.e. corrective training or I will recommend punishment to the CoC). Personally I do not recommend what punishment I think the soldier needs, I simply state I believe he needs to be punished and leave it to the CoC. If they ask me for a recommendation on how far to go with the punishment I will talk it over with the CoC and determine my recommendation based on several factors (i.e past performance and issues, severity of the offense and likelihood for it to happen again).
Now in this incident where I am the Sgt of the guard and a soldier has fallen asleep, I have no choice but to report it to the OIC/Cdr. This is all lined out in the general orders and FM 22-6. GUARD DUTY and as an NCO I have a responsibility to follow the policies and standards set by them. When I report it, the CoC may say deal with it or they may say the CoC will deal with it. If I have the opportunity to deal with it, I will take all the factors into consideration and go from there.
As for what I consider to be good corrective training for a training or combat environment, is based on the factors of the situation and my ability to keep it at my level. Again in this case it is out of my hands and unless the CoC say deal with it, I don’t have much say. If the send it back to my level, that tells me 1) it was not that big of a deal to them (i.e. they are not going to punish unless I say to) and 2) that they have confidence in my ability to correct the problem and keep it from happening again. And in that situation I would use corrective training with close supervision to correct the problem until that soldier regained my confidence that it would not happen again.
Florida173
SOF Support
Arguing the semantics of what constitutes punishment and what constitutes corrective training is for the legal crowd. I don't care one way or another.
My experience is that you do indeed recommend a punishment to the Command while you escort the soldier for the reading.
Your story on what you would do sounds like a great plan for an ineffective leader in a non-CAMOS that's not vested in the mentoring of a future leader. Extra PT is always a good choice before and on top of whatever UCMJ follows.
Extra PT is great for simple bullshit (on spot corrections, ect), but when there is an actual shortfall in training you need to correct the problem. You do that by identifying the problem; developing a retraining (or corrective) program (with some suck mixed in) and you implement it until the correction is made. Pushups will not fix falling asleep on guard duty, pushups doesn’t change the fact that you had a security breach and now have to report it, pushups does nothing for this situation at all.
When a soldier puts not only “you” but everyone who is relying on him for security at risk, it’s not leadership development time, it is get security up, report, check, confirm and check again time. Afterwards, if you are given the opportunity to correct the problem with your soldier, by all means do what you think is right. I can tell you from personal experience that pushups are not going to fix it, but run your soldiers how you see fit…
Florida173
SOF Support
Please don't take any of it personal.. I misspoke before and after reading it back I can see where the tone is. Coming back from the attending the debates last night and I was a bit tired.
I'd imagine that the Marine leadership incorporated some sort of group punishment that brought reprisals, or the Marines were engaging in some self policing that went further back then the guard incident.
I can't disagree with your last comment there. I'm the product of creative discipline when I fucked up, bit I think that pushups probably won't fix anything. I work at the COCOM and TSOC levels as a contractor and a guardsmen, respectively, and I've never seen any extra PT at the Joint level. Unless it is being done behind the scenes.
TLDR20
Verified SOF
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 6,203
No one here has ever fallen asleep on fire guard? Or radio watch? Or sitting in a patrol base in the heat after walking for hours? If you haven't you haven't sucked bad enough. What they did to this guy was not the right thing. Blaming these guys for his killing himself is also fucking wrong. He made a choice and he is now dead for it. I don't have anything positive to say, but I know I have fallen asleep before. Is that unforgivable? I don't think so, nobody stepped on my chest or beat my ass either.
No worries brother, no harm no foul.;)
I understand where you are coming from, and yes I have nodded off after a long ass patrol while pulling security. However, that was in training and I have never done it in a combat zone especially pulling guard in FOB/COP.
I would not allow myself to fall asleep in FOB/COP while on guard, and I would recommend UCMJ on anyone who did allow themselves to fall asleep on guard in a FOB/COP. Why? Because some other soldier can lose his life over it, and to me that is 110% unacceptable to allow a brother to die because you are fucking tired. It’s too damn easy to call the SOG and say I am falling asleep and need a break, cup of coffee, ect. There is no excuse in that environment…
Training is a totally different story and in that environment I would probably use some corrective training and keep it at my level. Fire or radio guard would probably be a quick ass chewing followed with “you just got the next shift as well dumbass” while I checked on you every 15 minutes requiring you to recite your general orders, or some stupid shit like that.
Scotth
Verified Military
I think when you pour sand on someones face and put a boot to the head on your fellow soldier, if that is what actually happened, you have crossed the line from seeking corrective action to seeking retribution.
I think there was a whole bunch of fail for the situation to get to this point. The dead Marine failed his brothers and they failed him as well.
I think there was a whole bunch of fail for the situation to get to this point. The dead Marine failed his brothers and they failed him as well.
A sad story. The worst part- perhaps most ironic, in my opinion- is the NCO's (if they were NCO's) who slapped this young kid around were probably trying to save him from potentially career ending formal action. If you are a young combat Marine and you get written up, especially for this kind of infraction, you are done. The Corps' culture is unforgiving when it comes to dereliction of duty, and there is no greater failure than to fail your brothers. I would be willing to bet those NCO's or other Marines were trying their best to get this kid up to speed, and they simply lacked proper judgement on how to do it. They probably also were unable to recognize the state of mind for the young Marine who was the subject of discipline. I do know there are such things as cases when informal punishment has been dished out to young Marines instead of formal career ending punishment; where the subject of such correction has been mature enough to recognize it, the end result is a grateful warrior who adjusts, learns from their mistake and moves on.
But the Marine Corps is also unforgiving when it comes to hazing, and those who were involved will undoubtedly have the hammer dropped on them as well. All in all, everyone loses.
I pray for the families of all involved.
But the Marine Corps is also unforgiving when it comes to hazing, and those who were involved will undoubtedly have the hammer dropped on them as well. All in all, everyone loses.
I pray for the families of all involved.
JBS - well said - 2 wrongs don't make a right (even though 3 lefts do). I understand the local punishment/corrective action statement too - BUT, it is stated that this Marine had been found asleep on guard multiple times in the past few months - the time for local/non judicial punishment was long passed - he should have been medically evaluated and/or removed from duty... his fellow Marines and the NCOs were also wrong in their response/actions. And UCMJ calls for very strict punishments (up to death) for dereliction that could harm other servicemen during a declared war/conflict.
This is a precipitous slope - it appears there were failures of judgement all around - and we still do not have all of the facts.
This is a precipitous slope - it appears there were failures of judgement all around - and we still do not have all of the facts.
