5.56 vs. 6.8/6.5 continues

arizonaguide said:
So, any bitchin letters I can write/calls/emails etc...to Senators?
I'm good at that shit, and and I can sure "rattle the shit out of a few cages" about funding, if nothing else!
Click to expand...

I really think it would have to come from with in the ranks, at the end of the day the military runs the military...

It could be possible to have a Senator, request research in improving training/ equipment from with in the ranks. However, the military will choose who conducts the tests and of course they will be aproved by the leadership. Maybe a request from an out side PMC to research the down falls and areas at where the miitary can improve...:confused:
 
Thanks JAB.
I will put somethingtogether, and run it by you and Pardus, and see what ya think. A little congressional pressure could go a long way on that "151 rounds to combat" shit. And I'm just the arrogant prick to do it...(tactfully, of course)}:-)
I've done this type of thing before with quite good success. McCain is pretty decent (when he's not busy campaigning).
One cool thing that engineering taught me is the "advantage" (results)you can get when you apply the leverage in just the right point.
 
I've stayed away from posting here because I'm not a shooter.

But I had some time today, and read thru the whole thing.

My guys "pull the trigger" by hitting the "ENTER" button.

Having said that, I'm solidly with JAB.

If we're fighting a shooting war, then our Soldiers must know how to shoot.

JAB's right, one guy in the squad starts shooting, then everyone else does. Effective, but not quite to the point.

Any Soldier who is sent into (whatever) theater, ought to be able to hit what he/she is aiming at. Is that a crazy concept?

But back to the basic premise - we need to spend more time training our Soldiers on the range.

I spent more time convincing (screaming, yelling, grabbing.....) my Soldiers that their weapon wasn't an inconvenience, but a tool and a life-saver.....:doh:

"Why do I have to carry my weapon to the porta-potty, SGM"

"Do you want to die in a blue, plastic shitter, with your pants around your ankles, because it was inconvenient to have a weapon when you were attacked?"

:2c:
 
car said:
I've stayed away from posting here because I'm not a shooter.

But I had some time today, and read thru the whole thing.

My guys "pull the trigger" by hitting the "ENTER" button.

Having said that, I'm solidly with JAB.

If we're fighting a shooting war, then our Soldiers must know how to shoot.

JAB's right, one guy in the squad starts shooting, then everyone else does. Effective, but not quite to the point.

Any Soldier who is sent into (whatever) theater, ought to be able to hit what he/she is aiming at. Is that a crazy concept?

But back to the basic premise - we need to spend more time training our Soldiers on the range.

I spent more time convincing (screaming, yelling, grabbing.....) my Soldiers that their weapon wasn't an inconvenience, but a tool and a life-saver.....:doh:

"Why do I have to carry my weapon to the porta-potty, SGM"

"Do you want to die in a blue, plastic shitter, with your pants around your ankles, because it was inconvenient to have a weapon when you were attacked?"

:2c:
Click to expand...

Thats actually funny because on of my brothers buddies in Samara was taking a shit when a haji open his shitter door and tried to rip him out of the wooden shitter on the edge of their green zone in broad daylight. The haji was killed but they set up SOP for people going to the shitters on the edge of thier PB's green zone by the BP's to bring an m9 with them and have it at the ready should that happen again.
 
11B-B4 said:
Thats actually funny because on of my brothers buddies in Samara was taking a shit when a haji open his shitter door and tried to rip him out of the wooden shitter on the edge of their green zone in broad daylight. The haji was killed but they set up SOP for people going to the shitters on the edge of thier PB's green zone by the BP's to bring an m9 with them and have it at the ready should that happen again.
Click to expand...

I walk around my own home with a weapon on my hip most of the time. Can't imagine being in a war zone and leaving any of my weapons to take a shit. :uhh:
 
Amen, 82!!

J.A.B. said:
It could be possible to have a Senator, request research in improving training/ equipment from with in the ranks. However, the military will choose who conducts the tests and of course they will be aproved by the leadership. Maybe a request from an out side PMC to research the down falls and areas at where the miitary can improve...:confused:
Click to expand...

JAB, This letter to McCain will go out tonight, Bro!}:-)

I will be sending something like this: (?)

* SEE JAB's changes and my finalized...below *


Folks, PM me back before 0200 tonight if corrections/additions need to be made. Will be faxing at 0200 AZ time.
Also please feel free to copy/revise/correct and send to your senator/congressman.
 
My changes
Dear Senator,

I have some good friends who are regular and reserve component military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
It has come to my understanding that their weapons training is sorely underfunded/inadequate before going into combat.
In some cases they are currently being considered "qualified" for combat after firing only a 151 round (Army) qualification course.

In general, most Regular Army soldiers will fire this qualification twice a year, while Reserve/ National Guard Army will only fire this qualification once a year. It was also brought to my knowledge that computer generated systems have been developed and emplaced in order to reduce the amount of training ammunition used by these warriors.

This is unacceptable!
It is common knowledge that an average shooter needs a minimum of 3000 rounds fired per a weapon system before the muscle memory and proper techniques become second nature. Computer games can not replace the range time necessary to build a solid shooter, and training ammunition should never be an issue. Especially in a time of war!

Further, current battle emphasizes a lot of "urban warfare" house-to-house type environment (Iraq), along with extended ranges in mountain terrain (Afghanistan).
Thus:
EVERY common soldier's training should (in addition) include plenty of close quarter’s marksmanship (CQM) and long range marksmanship (LRM) type training. These are skill’s that can not be built in computer based training or with a lack of ammunition and range time.

Senator, please investigate this situation and correct it.
Further loss of lives of ANY of our troops due to inadequate/underfunded training is unacceptable!

Please let me know what you find out, and what we can do to correct this serious lack of support for our troops.
Thank you Senator, Sincerely,

(me)

dated this date of 05Dec08, 0200am, two days before Pearl Harbor day!
 
Final Draft faxed to McCain @ Senate, and Arizona Republic Newspaper at 2330 tonight.

Dear Senator McCain,

I have some very respected friends who are actively serving in the Military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
It has come to my understanding that their weapon training is sorely under-funded and inadequate before going into combat! In many cases they are currently being considered "qualified" for combat after firing only a meager 151 round qualification course!
This is unacceptable!

It was also brought to my knowledge that computer generated systems have been developed and emplaced in order to reduce the amount of training ammunition used by these warriors. Computer games cannot replace the range time necessary to build a solid shooter!
Reducing the training ammunition costs should never be more important than our soldiers getting adequate training. Especially in a time of war! A soldier needs a minimum of 3000+ rounds to develop the muscle memory and technique necessary for combat. 3000+ rounds at a minimum.

Further, real-world current battle strategy and tactics emphasize a lot of "urban warfare" house-to-house type combat, and thus: EVERY common soldier's training (in addition to Long Range training) must include plenty of CQB type training.

Close Quarter’s Marksmanship (CQM) and Long-Range Marksmanship (LRM) type training are skill’s that cannot be built in computer-based training, or with a lack of ammunition and range time.

Senator, please investigate this situation and correct it.

Further loss of lives of ANY of our troops due to inadequate and under-funded training is completely unacceptable!

Also, Senator, I'm curious if it may be time to "set aside" The Hague Agreement, and go to a (supplemental) hollow "expanding ammunition" projectile, similar to what the Russians now have in their inventory.

Please find out if this Hollow Projectile is what would be "preferred" by our 'trigger pullers" on the ground, to supplement the AP/FMJ rounds. Please, (at least) find out if this is what they want. Please talk to the real "boots on the ground" Training Sergeants and Gunnery Sergeants currently engaged in these types of situations, not the Washington types, and find out what they REALLY want in regards to training and ammunition.

It may be time to put-aside old (no longer current) political agreements of 50+ years ago, and it is MOST DEFINATELY time to upgrade the quality and quantity of our training to reflect "real world" conditions.

Please let me know what you find out, and what we can do to correct this serious lack of support for our troops. I have faith that you can do something about these issues.
Please also contact me further if I can be of assistance in any way in this quest.
Thank you Senator, Sincerely,

(ME)

Dated this date of 05Dec08, 0200am, just two days before the honoring of Pearl Harbor Day, and the loss of life of similar warriors on the USS Arizona.
 
Anyone who want's to copy (revise, whatever) this (the above) letter to send to your own Congressman/Senator/Newspaper please feel free to do so.

If our guys aren't getting the proper training just to save a buck...
Well that's freakin CRIMINAL to me.
:mad:
 
11B-B4 said:
Thats actually funny because on of my brothers buddies in Samara was taking a shit when a haji open his shitter door and tried to rip him out of the wooden shitter on the edge of their green zone in broad daylight. The haji was killed but they set up SOP for people going to the shitters on the edge of thier PB's green zone by the BP's to bring an m9 with them and have it at the ready should that happen again.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm a little passionate about this myself. One of my guys from the Airpane Gang, was in a plastic shitter when they got hit.

I wasn't there, but the story I've been told (and we all know parartroopers are trained liars :D) is that "joe" was in the shitter when they got hit with mortars. The shitter was "perforated, 1SG!" Joe stumbled out, pants around his legs, completely unharmed!

He'll catch hell for that the rest of his life! }:-)

Afghanistan - '02.
 
Don't know bullet weight or MV yet. Somebody, somewhere knows, but PICA hasn't said or maybe my google-fu is just weak.
Documentation says re-designed projo with re-formulated powder for higher MV, lower flash, cleaner burn and less tooth-decay.

Know what this is? ---> []

A picture of me. Not holding my breath.
 
Just another reminder on excellent FREE training:

Anyone who is CONUS, there is an excellent place where a Iraq/Afgh vet can get a free 5 day Carbine class at Gunsite Academy here in Arizona during the week of August 10-14, 2009. (I said FREE!). Or, pistol class July 20-24.
Link's here:http://gunsite.com/courses/carbine.html and you're guaranteed to fire more than 151 rounds.

Just posting another reminder. (It's Free!)
 
arizonaguide said:
Just another reminder on excellent FREE training:

Anyone who is CONUS, there is an excellent place where a Iraq/Afgh vet can get a free 5 day Carbine class at Gunsite Academy here in Arizona during the week of August 10-14, 2009. (I said FREE!). Or, pistol class July 20-24.
Link's here:http://gunsite.com/courses/carbine.html and you're guaranteed to fire more than 151 rounds.

Just posting another reminder. (It's Free!)
Click to expand...

Did anyone get signed up for the Free Gunsite classes mentioned above?
Just a reminder for Iraq/Afgh Vets!:2c:

JAB, have you heard anything being improved on the 151rounds to combat issue? I sent a followup letter this morning to the McCain office. Will also follow up Monday with a phone call.
 

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