A sad day for the soldier/seaman/airman on the ground.... (A-10/CAS Discussion)

[DA SWO]

You tell me, you're the expert.

So let me ask you, do you think losing the A-10 is going to reduce the quality of CAS that the guys on the ground receive?

Certain cases, just like losing F-16's or F-15E's would reduce the OVERALL quality of the CAS received.
What can the A-10 do that other platforms can not do?
Loiter, 30MM gun runs.
Other then armor, why is 30MM superior to 20MM?

It certainly does. It doesn't make him the all knowing authority though. It makes him well versed in what the AF tells him is right.
No, so obviously I have no say in the matter, right?.

No one says you should participate in the discussion, but your response was patronizing, the same thing he was accused of.

 

[x SF med]

The term "close" has nothing to do with how high the aircraft is. Helos are great, but they aren't the answer for everything.

I realize the A-10 is not a helicopter, even though it does tend to hover when it does a full release... I have lased targets and had the munitions lose read due to interference... it's scary as shit... the CAS from an A-10 is personal, the pilot actually gives a shit because his ass is on the same firing line as yours... and there are fewer per capita friendly fire incidents in the nearly 40 years of use than with the smart technologies used for HACAS in the past 10 years.... in my book as the guy on the ground, this is a hugely significant factor, especially since the G2A comms can be used to fine tune and move the Hog's attack profile to best suit everyone's needs...

Yes, I am very one sided in this... but then again, how many SF guys did a glitch in a box just kill? ...and how many have been blasted to mist by A-10's?

Oh yeah... an A-10 is about $13 million in today's dollars.... how much does each new HACAS platform cost? The fucking bombs cost more than the A-10 and are prone to problems with calibration...

So, color me jaded, old fashioned or whatever... the A-10 plays nice with its friends and is the friggin scourge of its enemies.

 

[pardus]

Certain cases, just like losing F-16's or F-15E's would reduce the OVERALL quality of the CAS received.
What can the A-10 do that other platforms can not do?
Loiter, 30MM gun runs.
Other then armor, why is 30MM superior to 20MM?

Yeah, I'm sure it would reduce the overall quality of CAS.
You know the answer to that as well as I, nothing else can do what it can do and it's role is sorely needed.
It's not the size of the gun that matters, it's how you use it

No one says you should participate in the discussion, but your response was patronizing, the same thing he was accused of.

Yeah, fair enough, it was. @CDG first beer is on me.

 

[CDG]

You tell me, you're the expert.

So let me ask you, do you think losing the A-10 is going to reduce the quality of CAS that the guys on the ground receive?

The Army's position on being supported is whatever the maneuver force commander I'm supporting tells me it is.

Of course I think losing the A-10 is going to reduce the quality of CAS. I've never even remotely said otherwise.

 

[CDG]

I realize the A-10 is not a helicopter, even though it does tend to hover when it does a full release... I have lased targets and had the munitions lose read due to interference... it's scary as shit... the CAS from an A-10 is personal, the pilot actually gives a shit because his ass is on the same firing line as yours... and there are fewer per capita friendly fire incidents in the nearly 40 years of use than with the smart technologies used for HACAS in the past 10 years.... in my book as the guy on the ground, this is a hugely significant factor, especially since the G2A comms can be used to fine tune and move the Hog's attack profile to best suit everyone's needs...

Yes, I am very one sided in this... but then again, how many SF guys did a glitch in a box just kill? ...and how many have been blasted to mist by A-10's?

Oh yeah... an A-10 is about $13 million in today's dollars.... how much does each new HACAS platform cost? The fucking bombs cost more than the A-10 and are prone to problems with calibration...

So, color me jaded, old fashioned or whatever... the A-10 plays nice with its friends and is the friggin scourge of its enemies.

It seems from this post that you might think I don't have a problem with the loss of the A-10. That is certainly not the case. I don't think there's anything else in the inventory that can match it as a CAS platform. I think every JTAC out there would love it if we got nothing but A-10s all the time. That will never be a reality though, so we train to be able to utilize everything. Mistakes can and do happen, unfortunately. But HACAS platforms are not a sole-source cause of fratricide. And in every case I've studied, the fault rested with the person, not the technology. Loss of SA, not following doctrinal procedure, not battle-tracking, not knowing your equipment, etc.

 

[pardus]

It seems from this post that you might think I don't have a problem with the loss of the A-10. That is certainly not the case. I don't think there's anything else in the inventory that can match it as a CAS platform. I think every JTAC out there would love it if we got nothing but A-10s all the time. That will never be a reality though, so we train to be able to utilize everything. Mistakes can and do happen, unfortunately. But HACAS platforms are not a sole-source cause of fratricide. And in every case I've studied, the fault rested with the person, not the technology. Loss of SA, not following doctrinal procedure, not battle-tracking, not knowing your equipment, etc.

By "person" do you mean man on the ground with the radio or pilot or both?
So let me ask you this. What % of fratricides (roughly, I'm not calling you out or asking for exact numbers) come from low level vs high level CAS, and do you think if the platforms were lower, there would have been a better chance of the pilot getting eyes on, therefore preventing a blue on blue regardless of the direction he'd been given from the man on the ground?

 

[AWP]

I don't think there's anything else in the inventory that can match it as a CAS platform. I think every JTAC out there would love it if we got nothing but A-10s all the time. That will never be a reality though, so we train to be able to utilize everything.

Years ago I spoke to some JTAC's over here and hands down they preferred the A-10, then the -15E, and then the F-16. The line of thinking was that the -10 was obviously built for CAS and those pilots trained for CAS. The -15E had a back-seater, and the -16 was just fast and with a single pilot. The theory was that the extra crew in the -15E made for a more efficient use of the platform. The pilot could fly the plane and the WSO could handle the radios and coordination. They really noticed it when the planes were flying below terrain, down in the valleys. (The N2K region comes to mind)

From my POV working the CRC mission I've noticed the controllers would often make multiple calls to a -16 and that rate went down considerably when speaking to the Hawg's and Eagles. Speed and seats...

Outside looking in, I can only conclude that task saturation is a problem in modern "do it all" single-seat fighters...which is all we're purchasing for the future and I think that's a huge mistake. We're trying to fight wars on a budget and that's a bucket of fail. Accountants and lawyers run the wars now.

 

[DA SWO]

I realize the A-10 is not a helicopter, even though it does tend to hover when it does a full release... I have lased targets and had the munitions lose read due to interference... it's scary as shit... the CAS from an A-10 is personal, the pilot actually gives a shit because his ass is on the same firing line as yours... and there are fewer per capita friendly fire incidents in the nearly 40 years of use than with the smart technologies used for HACAS in the past 10 years.... in my book as the guy on the ground, this is a hugely significant factor, especially since the G2A comms can be used to fine tune and move the Hog's attack profile to best suit everyone's needs...

Yes, I am very one sided in this... but then again, how many SF guys did a glitch in a box just kill? ...and how many have been blasted to mist by A-10's?

Oh yeah... an A-10 is about $13 million in today's dollars.... how much does each new HACAS platform cost? The fucking bombs cost more than the A-10 and are prone to problems with calibration...

So, color me jaded, old fashioned or whatever... the A-10 plays nice with its friends and is the friggin scourge of its enemies.

Probably the best answer I have seen.

Problem, as I see it, is the A-10 supporters focus on the gun ignoring other attributes.

The AF can prove a 20MM strafe run is just as deadly, and they have 12 years of data to show how many 20mm vs 30mm strafe runs have been made.

The slow speed, quick return to target and ability to loiter rarely get mentioned, which gives Big Blue the ammo (no pun intended) to argue that an F-16 can do everything an A-10 can do, and do it in a higher threat environment.

I'd shitcan the Active units and keep the Guard guys/gals on a semi-constant mob/rotation schedule (agree with FF on that one).
The other option would deactivate the Squadron in Korea, one in AZ and one in GA; turn Korea into a 175 day rotation split between Active and Guard units.

 

[pardus]

Probably the best answer I have seen.

Problem, as I see it, is the A-10 supporters focus on the gun ignoring other attributes.

The AF can prove a 20MM strafe run is just as deadly, and they have 12 years of data to show how many 20mm vs 30mm strafe runs have been made.

The slow speed, quick return to target and ability to loiter rarely get mentioned, which gives Big Blue the ammo (no pun intended) to argue that an F-16 can do everything an A-10 can do, and do it in a higher threat environment.

I'd shitcan the Active units and keep the Guard guys/gals on a semi-constant mob/rotation schedule (agree with FF on that one).
The other option would deactivate the Squadron in Korea, one in AZ and one in GA; turn Korea into a 175 day rotation split between Active and Guard units.

That along with the payload are it's main attributes IMHO. I really don't see the gun caliber as a big deal, for armor sure.

What platforms have those 20mm strafes come from? I find it hard to believe a fast jet can be as accurate as something like the A-10, and it it isn't accurate it isn't deadly, regardless of how many runs are made.

 

[CDG]

By "person" do you mean man on the ground with the radio or pilot or both?
So let me ask you this. What % of fratricides (roughly, I'm not calling you out or asking for exact numbers) come from low level vs high level CAS, and do you think if the platforms were lower, there would have been a better chance of the pilot getting eyes on, therefore preventing a blue on blue regardless of the direction he'd been given from the man on the ground?

From the cases I've seen, the guy on the ground was typically, but not always, at fault. The Udari Range incident is one where the pilot was in the wrong, and there have been night training missions end with guys on an OP being strafed because the pilot confused the IR pointer terminating at the target with the IR strobe placed on the OP. Altitude has had nothing to do with any of the cases we studied here at JTACQC, or that I've read about on my own.

DESERT STORM- A Marine LAV is out scouting for the Army. The JTAC that owned that area's airspace was never notified that the Marines had moved forward of the FLOT. Aircraft spot the vehicle and call it up. JTAC, going off the information available, stated "NO FRIENDLIES FORWARD OF FLOT" and cleared the aircrew. Several Marines were killed.


OIF- The event filmed by the BBC news crew. JTAC told the aircraft there was no time for a 9-line and went straight to a talk-on. Aircrew confirmed they saw a road, an intersection, and vehicles. The JTAC was taking fire from a position in front of him, but the aircrew were contact a position to his rear. The BBC position was never reported to the JTAC. Attack was cleared and the F-14 dropped on friendlies.


OEF- 2 x A1os attack an OP. A-10s had been prosecuting targets in the area for roughly an hour when the sun began to rise and the aircrew switched from NVGs to day visual. Target and friendly locations looked similar, and the A-10s rolled in on the OP.

OEF- JTAC fails to understand his equipment and passes a friendly grid to a B-52 for a JDAM drop. The JTAC had taken over from another JTAC that had already been conducting strikes for awhile. DAGR batteries die and when it re-initialized the JTAC passed the first coordinates that popped up, which were the friendlies.

Qala-i-Jangi_ F-18 drops a 2k pound JDAM on friendlies. Aircrew mixed up the friendly and target grids. Flight lead recognizes the error and corrects it in his system. Wingman fails to make the correction. Wingman reads coordinates back to lead, and lead again looks at the wrong set of coordinates and checks off on the drop.

-

 

[DA SWO]

From the cases I've seen, the guy on the ground was typically, but not always, at fault. The Udari Range incident is one where the pilot was in the wrong, and there have been night training missions end with guys on an OP being strafed because the pilot confused the IR pointer terminating at the target with the IR strobe placed on the OP. Altitude has had nothing to do with any of the cases we studied here at JTACQC, or that I've read about on my own.

DESERT STORM- A Marine LAV is out scouting for the Army. The JTAC that owned that area's airspace was never notified that the Marines had moved forward of the FLOT. Aircraft spot the vehicle and call it up. JTAC, going off the information available, stated "NO FRIENDLIES FORWARD OF FLOT" and cleared the aircrew. Several Marines were killed.


OIF- The event filmed by the BBC news crew. JTAC told the aircraft there was no time for a 9-line and went straight to a talk-on. Aircrew confirmed they saw a road, an intersection, and vehicles. The JTAC was taking fire from a position in front of him, but the aircrew were contact a position to his rear. The BBC position was never reported to the JTAC. Attack was cleared and the F-14 dropped on friendlies.


OEF- 2 x A1os attack an OP. A-10s had been prosecuting targets in the area for roughly an hour when the sun began to rise and the aircrew switched from NVGs to day visual. Target and friendly locations looked similar, and the A-10s rolled in on the OP.

OEF- JTAC fails to understand his equipment and passes a friendly grid to a B-52 for a JDAM drop. The JTAC had taken over from another JTAC that had already been conducting strikes for awhile. DAGR batteries die and when it re-initialized the JTAC passed the first coordinates that popped up, which were the friendlies.

Qala-i-Jangi_ F-18 drops a 2k pound JDAM on friendlies. Aircrew mixed up the friendly and target grids. Flight lead recognizes the error and corrects it in his system. Wingman fails to make the correction. Wingman reads coordinates back to lead, and lead again looks at the wrong set of coordinates and checks off on the drop.

-

The Desert Storm mishap a/c was an A-10 IIRC. There was another A-10 Blue on Blue in OIF IIRC.

F-14 at Udari Range was being talked on target by a fast FAC handing off to the JTACs. again IIRC.

There was also an AC-130 mishap early OEF timewise.

@pardus F-15's and F-16's have both flown strafe missions in Afghanistan.

 

[pardus]

@pardus F-15's and F-16's have both flown strafe missions in Afghanistan.

Sure but how accurate are they? Particularly compared to A-10/AC-130.

ETA: That is my point of contention the the AF's mentality on replacing the A-10, the justification is "the fast movers can do it". Just because something can drop a bomb and fire it's guns doesn't mean they can do effective CAS/replace the A-10 without loss of capability.

I could perform a heart transplant, but would you want me doing it on you?

 

[x SF med]

So, we all agree that the A-10 is:
Dependable
Well armored
Accurate
Ground troop friendly
Has great loiter time/fast reengagement
Cost effective

and it strikes fear into the people on the wrong side of the nose...

Why is the AF replacing it for CAS, again?

Ground Troops think the A-10 is the sexiest plane in the AF inventory, but it is closely tied with the c-130 for that honor... Oh, they've essentially gotten rid of the 130, with no STOL medium lift rough ground capable replacement... anybody see a pattern here?

 

[Grunt]

...Why is the AF replacing it for CAS, again?...

There is always that one or two people who feel they "have to leave their mark" on something...good or bad...they don't care. They just want to be "remembered".

 

[DA SWO]

Sure but how accurate are they? Particularly compared to A-10/AC-130.

ETA: That is my point of contention the the AF's mentality on replacing the A-10, the justification is "the fast movers can do it". Just because something can drop a bomb and fire it's guns doesn't mean they can do effective CAS/replace the A-10 without loss of capability.

I could perform a heart transplant, but would you want me doing it on you?

How many strafing fratricides have their been?

 

[AWP]

The AC-130 mishap killed CWO Harriman from 3rd Group during Anaconda. I think that was a navigation error by the crew.

Re: strafing I know it was used to good effect at Roberts' Ridge from both -15E's and -16's.

2009, an F-15E executed a CFIT while practicing strafing. The flight lead's WSO took the blame for that one.
http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/history/2296-f-15e-losses#0-12-airframe-90-0231

Airframes other than the A-10 are using their guns. How often? I have no idea. That's probably a Master's thesis at the Air War college waiting to happen.

 

[CDG]

Sure but how accurate are they? Particularly compared to A-10/AC-130.

ETA: That is my point of contention the the AF's mentality on replacing the A-10, the justification is "the fast movers can do it". Just because something can drop a bomb and fire it's guns doesn't mean they can do effective CAS/replace the A-10 without loss of capability.

I could perform a heart transplant, but would you want me doing it on you?

The AC-130 is the most accurate when it comes to cannon fire. The accuracy of the A-10 and fast movers strafe runs aren't really much different, from what I understand. Again though, no other cannon brings the hard target kill capability that the GAU-8 does. Another advantage of the A-10s gun is that even though it's a bigger round, it carries a lot more of them. 1150 rounds vs. 300-500.

 

[CDG]

So, we all agree that the A-10 is:
Dependable
Well armored
Accurate
Ground troop friendly
Has great loiter time/fast reengagement
Cost effective

and it strikes fear into the people on the wrong side of the nose...

Why is the AF replacing it for CAS, again?

Ground Troops think the A-10 is the sexiest plane in the AF inventory, but it is closely tied with the c-130 for that honor... Oh, they've essentially gotten rid of the 130, with no STOL medium lift rough ground capable replacement... anybody see a pattern here?

The Air Force has never embraced the CAS role. The A-10, TACPs, JTACs, etc. are all looked at just a bit askance by Big Blue. They'll talk us up all day long to look supportive, but at the end of the day I believe the AF wishes it could focus solely on air-to-air, strategic bombing, and deep interdiction instead of having to devote resources to those pesky ground guys that go out and close with an destroy the enemy. Airpower alone will never win a war, no matter how much some pilots seem to think it will.

 

[CDG]

The Desert Storm mishap a/c was an A-10 IIRC.

F-14 at Udari Range was being talked on target by a fast FAC handing off to the JTACs. again IIRC.

It was an A-10, it strafed the LAV.

The Udari incident was as fucked up as a football bat from start to finish. The FAC was adding nothing to the situation, just interjecting "nose looks good" here and there, for whatever reason. No one ever established who had terminal control. The JTAC was using incorrect night brevity. The worst part is the end of the transcript, when the aircraft has already released ordnance, and the JTAC comes up "ABORT, ABORT, ABORT" because he realized what had happened.

 

[DA SWO]

It was an A-10, it strafed the LAV.

The Udari incident was as fucked up as a football bat from start to finish. The FAC was adding nothing to the situation, just interjecting "nose looks good" here and there, for whatever reason. No one ever established who had terminal control. The JTAC was using incorrect night brevity. The worst part is the end of the transcript, when the aircraft has already released ordnance, and the JTAC comes up "ABORT, ABORT, ABORT" because he realized what had happened.

F/A-18 auto-released IIRC, i.e. he released before getting cleared to release.

While we are talking fratricide, don't forget URGENT FURY where the ANGLICO had the A-7 strafe the TOC. Friend of mine lost both his legs that day, another (2?) Soldiers died.