Anonymous Letter Discussion and General Kurt Sonntags rebuttal (MERGED)

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Two Army Green Berets are fighting for their military careers after being associated with an anonymous email that accused their commanders of lowering standards to enable more soldiers — particularly female — to graduate from its prestigious Q-course.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...er-anonymous-email-exposed-lowered-standards/
View attachment 26012

I know my knowledge of separation regulations isn't the strongest, but since when can you get discharged because of a GOMOR?

In December, both Robertson and Squires received word that their GOMORs would stay on their files permanently. And just last week, both were told they were being discharged from the military within 60 days.
 

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If you're Indef, pretty sure you're needs of the army when it comes to retention.

Didn't think of that (it's early here). Looking through the regs/policies;

-The GOMOR triggers the QMP board
-QMP finds SM does not warrant retention
-SM is informed of denial of continued service
-SM has 60 days to submit appeal to their CO. A CO (LTC or higher) has 120 days to submit an appeal on SM's behalf
-CO has 30 days from receipt of appeal to submit to USAREC
-If SM denies appeal or appeal is denied, they will receive pre-separation counseling
-Discharge will occur 90 days after the Soldier receives pre-separation counseling as required by law (10 USC 1142)
 

Box

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I don't think the Army is trying to expand. Recruiting problems - absolutely - but based on the view from my foxhole, there is more trimming than there is growing.

The problem is more 'nuanced' than just expanding or not expanding. When the conventional force trims their numbers - it generally signals a "slight" expansion of SOF troops to make up the difference.
Force multipliers and all that jazz....

The trick is - when the conventional force starts to trim down, it shrinks the recruiting pool for SOF. It's neat to suggest that we'll just focus on 18X expansion but the truth is, you cant really have a well rounded SOF element that is built form raw recruits. You NEED service experience to tie things together and when there just aren't that many folks coming into the 'big' Army - there aren't that many folks leaving 'big Army' to join SOF.
As a result - this thing we call 'standards' will begin to dip.

Senior leaders and the troops themselves will lie to themselves and say cute things like - "its harder now than ever before" but most of those people don't spend much time looking at themselves in the mirror every morning. The other failure is the false truth that "If SFAS is correct, AND WE THINK IT IS, then there is no reason that people should fail the SFQC"

That is an ignorant and arrogant way of pretending that YOUR ideas are the right ideas. Humor me by considering these two similar but different imaginary troops:
-One troop can run fast and lift heavy things - they can work through a little pain and discomfort - they don't mind being a little tired and hungry - they are not dragged down by stress - they are intelligent - most important, they can be trusted to think on their feet when things get a little crazy.
These folks will excel at SFAS.
-One troop runs fast - lifts heavy things - feels no pain - never gets tired - doesn't feel stress - they can think on their feet but the results are usually fleeting; if you press them for TOOOO long the truth will come out - they are just bullshit artists in peak physical condition. They are hyper competitive but generally only "tolerate" the other guys on the team because the rest of the team doesn't measure up.
Sadly - these folks will ALSO generally do well in SFAS.


BUT BUT BUT - you said "If SFAS is correct, AND WE THINK IT IS, then there is no reason that people should fail the SFQC"

Well........
SFAS only has a limited time to "weed out" people like Dennis Rodman. SFAS only has a brief amount of time to watch Terrell Owens before he goes to an ODA and begins to openly talk shit about every single Team Sergeant that he ever works for. SFAS doesnt have time to wait until someone like Jonathan Papelbon blames everyone INCLUDING THE BAT BOY for the teams performance while accepting none of his own shortcomings. SFAS doesn't have time to babysit Olympic Swimmers that get arrested for vandalizing public bathrooms. SFAS is just there to make sure that you are trainable - it was designed to keep folks from PCS'ing to fort Bragg and then QUITTING as an easy way to get stationed on Ft Bragg.

Senior Leaders can pretend that SFAS only needs a couple of weeks to weed-out the folk that simply DON'T MAKE GOOD TEAM MATES - but that is nothing more than proof of their hubris. On the other hand, the instructors that follow "select-ees" through rest of training are the ones that find out that the guy that runs fast, lifts heavy things, feels no pain, and never gets tired is also a shit bird. The instructor cadre are the ones that watch these jokers OVER TIME in a way that completes the picture.

It would seem that some leaders know better than their SME's - maybe - maybe not - but clearly, something is wrong - something is not working the way it should be or we wouldn't be having "Town Hall" meetings that focus on poor discipline. We certainly wouldn't be reading formal letters from Service Secretaries and GO's that remind us NOT to act like shit bags!!

...because "if SFAS works (AND WE THINK IT DOES)" then SFAS would weed out all of these clowns before they had a chance to do fucked up shit.
AMIRIGHT?

The fully trained SF soldier that comes out the back end of the SFQC should be a work of art - a portrait if you will.
SFAS doesnt paint the portrait - SFAS is just a fucking snap shot.

Senior leaders might want to consider that very possibility. Maybe even - you know - listen to their instructors....
 
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Marauder06

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"...just last week, both were told they were being discharged from the military within 60 days."

I'm not 100% sure this is an accurate timeline. If it is... :-o
 

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"...just last week, both were told they were being discharged from the military within 60 days."

I'm not 100% sure this is an accurate timeline. If it is... :-o

I had to look up all the QMP/seperation regs, because that seemed off. I always thought it was 90 days; by regs, it's NLT 90 days.

If they've truly both been informed they are being separated, I'd be attempting to use all the time I have available by regulation to submit my appeal.

They're chances of winning are basically non-existent, but that would extend their time before separation by roughly 60-90 days
 

Cookie_

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I don't think the Army is trying to expand. Recruiting problems - absolutely - but based on the view from my foxhole, there is more trimming than there is growing.

The problem is more 'nuanced' than just expanding or not expanding. When the conventional force trims their numbers - it generally signals a "slight" expansion of SOF troops to make up the difference.
Force multipliers and all that jazz....

The trick is - when the conventional force starts to trim down, it shrinks the recruiting pool for SOF. It's neat to suggest that we'll just focus on 18X expansion but the truth is, you cant really have a well rounded SOF element that is built form raw recruits. You NEED service experience to tie things together and when there just aren't that many folks coming into the 'big' Army - there aren't that many folks leaving 'big Army' to join SOF.
As a result - this thing we call 'standards' will begin to dip.

Senior leaders and the troops themselves will lie to themselves and say cute things like - "its harder now than ever before" but most of those people don't spend much time looking at themselves in the mirror every morning. The other failure is the false truth that "If SFAS is correct, AND WE THINK IT IS, then there is no reason that people should fail the SFQC"

That is an ignorant and arrogant way of pretending that YOUR ideas are the right ideas. Humor me by considering these two similar but different imaginary troops:
-One troop can run fast and lift heavy things - they can work through a little pain and discomfort - they don't mind being a little tired and hungry - they are not dragged down by stress - they are intelligent - most important, they can be trusted to think on their feet when things get a little crazy.
These folks will excel at SFAS.
-One troop runs fast - lifts heavy things - feels no pain - never gets tired - doesn't feel stress - they can think on their feet but the results are usually fleeting; if you press them for TOOOO long the truth will come out - they are just bullshit artists in peak physical condition. They are hyper competitive but generally only "tolerate" the other guys on the team because the rest of the team doesn't measure up.
Sadly - these folks will ALSO generally do well in SFAS.


BUT BUT BUT - you said "If SFAS is correct, AND WE THINK IT IS, then there is no reason that people should fail the SFQC"

Well........
SFAS only has a limited time to "weed out" people like Dennis Rodman. SFAS only has a brief amount of time to watch Terrell Owens before he goes to an ODA and begins to openly talk shit about every single Team Sergeant that he ever works for. SFAS doesnt have time to wait until someone like Jonathan Papelbon blames everyone INCLUDING THE BAT BOY for the teams performance while accepting none of his own shortcomings. SFAS doesn't have time to babysit Olympic Swimmers that get arrested for vandalizing public bathrooms. SFAS is just there to make sure that you are trainable - it was designed to keep folks from PCS'ing to fort Bragg and then QUITTING as an easy way to get stationed on Ft Bragg.

Senior Leaders can pretend that SFAS only needs a couple of weeks to weed-out the folk that simply DON'T MAKE GOOD TEAM MATES - but that is nothing more than proof of their hubris. On the other hand, the instructors that follow "select-ees" through rest of training are the ones that find out that the guy that runs fast, lifts heavy things, feels no pain, and never gets tired is also a shit bird. The instructor cadre are the ones that watch these jokers OVER TIME in a way that completes the picture.

It would seem that some leaders know better than their SME's - maybe - maybe not - but clearly, something is wrong - something is not working the way it should be or we wouldn't be having "Town Hall" meetings that focus on poor discipline. We certainly wouldn't be reading formal letters from Service Secretaries and GO's that remind us NOT to act like shit bags!!

...because "if SFAS works (AND WE THINK IT DOES)" then SFAS would weed out all of these clowns before they had a chance to do fucked up shit.
AMIRIGHT?

The fully trained SF soldier that comes out the back end of the SFQC should be a work of art - a portrait if you will.
SFAS doesnt paint the portrait - SFAS is just a fucking snap shot.

Senior leaders might want to consider that very possibility. Maybe even - you know - listen to their instructors....

There isn't a love icon anymore, but I'd love this if I could.

The Army (and every other branch, I'm sure) has a serious issue with placing "PT/ability to suck it up" above everything else.

You can get most anyone to a high PT standard, or get them to become comfortable with the uncomfortable; it's a lot harder to teach humility, critical thinking, teamwork, etc.
 

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I know my knowledge of separation regulations isn't the strongest, but since when can you get discharged because of a GOMOR?

Low hanging fruit Brother. That's the long and short of it when it comes to retention.

Both of these NCO's need to file appeals to the Department of the Army Suitability Evaluation Board (DASEB).

It's on record that in one breath, Sonntagg says that he values the training staff’s input and has not, “and will not, issue a gag order.” But, in his next breath, and as a matter of clear and obvious retaliation in response to his butt hurt over the allegations, refuses the request for a trial by CM and defaults to that dirty little secret weapon known as a GOMOR. It's a bullshit workaround to silence someone or get even, without any evidentiary procedure, that should have been abolished long ago.
 

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This is a very interesting case. I read back through the articles to try to make sure I understand everything going on.

Regardless of the situation inside SWCS, the author(s) of that letter probably deserved an Art15, GOMOR, and/or a ticket out of the Army. What's interesting to me is that these two Green Berets say they weren't involved. If that's the case, it seems kind of crappy to cashier them on an allegation that they were developing an app (or whatever) on Army time, unless there's a whole lot more to it than that.
 

DA SWO

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This is a very interesting case. I read back through the articles to try to make sure I understand everything going on.

Regardless of the situation inside SWCS, the author(s) of that letter probably deserved an Art15, GOMOR, and/or a ticket out of the Army. What's interesting to me is that these two Green Berets say they weren't involved. If that's the case, it seems kind of crappy to cashier them on an allegation that they were developing an app (or whatever) on Army time, unless there's a whole lot more to it than that.
Why?
 

Ranger Psych

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This is a very interesting case. I read back through the articles to try to make sure I understand everything going on.

Regardless of the situation inside SWCS, the author(s) of that letter probably deserved an Art15, GOMOR, and/or a ticket out of the Army. What's interesting to me is that these two Green Berets say they weren't involved. If that's the case, it seems kind of crappy to cashier them on an allegation that they were developing an app (or whatever) on Army time, unless there's a whole lot more to it than that.

So what's someone supposed to do when every normal avenue has been approached with regards to command decisions being contrary to making the best special operations combatants for that specific segment of the rainbow wheel?
 
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