Army takes HK416s from special unit

[pardus]

I don't care how good you are at breaking down an M-16 or M-4, they have way too many pieces that have to be dealt with. And you lose a couple of those smaller pieces, like that little pin that holds the bolt extractor in place, forget about it.

LOL, I went from an M16A1 to the Steyr AUG, the M series are a dream to strip compared to the Steyr. Steyr has an insane amount of parts when stripped something like 13 or so!

Barrel = 4 parts

Butt = 4

Bolt group = 4 :uhh:

Receiver = 1

What did I miss Irish?

I loved the M16 for its simplicity.

 

[Ravage]

Just as a side note, GROM is switching from the M4 to the HK416

 

[8'Duece]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't HK come out with the 416 as a weapon that has several design features in common with the AK variants, only a little more workmanship put into the total weapon?

One of the best features of the AK is the ease of maintenance, which is a real plus when you have to break down a weapon for a quick cleaning and get back into a fight. When we were running an AK range for one of our brigades during my last summer in, breaking down the weapons coming off the range for a quick clean was a breeze.

I don't care how good you are at breaking down an M-16 or M-4, they have way too many pieces that have to be dealt with. And you lose a couple of those smaller pieces, like that little pin that holds the bolt extractor in place, forget about it.

Actually, no.

The 416 has the same bolt and carrier and same trig components. The op rod system is the only difference.

So you might be replacing an extractor pin anyway. Either way, it's a great rifle, just pin it to your Colt lower.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

The huge plus that the 416 brings to the table, is the round count between cleaning. The M16 series uses a gas blow back operation, gas block (front sight assembly), gas tube and gas key (top portion of the bolt assembly).

When firing the M16 series rifle, the gas is pushed through the gas tube into the gas key (bolt), this pushes the bolt back. Thus cycling the weapon. This causes the carbon from the gas expulsion to build up in the chamber, bolt assembly and the rails that the bolt glides on.

The HK416 uses a gas piston system, allowing the gasses to be expelled at the gas block end. Thus keeping the gas and carbon out of the chamber, bolt and rails. This also allows for the bolt to stay cooler during operation, allowing the operator to clear a stoppage with out cool down periods.

Keeping the carbon caused by gas out of the key functioning components, makes the rifle much more dependable. Allows for less cleaning, less sluggish running when dirty and allows Joe to fix a stoppage with out burning his hands…

As for being able to tell a difference in operation, I could not tell until about 700 rounds. The 416 upper was running much smoother then the M4 upper.
:2c:

 

[pardus]

The huge plus that the 416 brings to the table, is the round count between cleaning. The M16 series uses a gas blow back operation, gas block (front sight assembly), gas tube and gas key (top portion of the bolt assembly).

When firing the M16 series rifle, the gas is pushed through the gas tube into the gas key (bolt), this pushes the bolt back. Thus cycling the weapon. This causes the carbon from the gas expulsion to build up in the chamber, bolt assembly and the rails that the bolt glides on.

The HK416 uses a gas piston system, allowing the gasses to be expelled at the gas block end. Thus keeping the gas and carbon out of the chamber, bolt and rails. This also allows for the bolt to stay cooler during operation, allowing the operator to clear a stoppage with out cool down periods.

Keeping the carbon caused by gas out of the key functioning components, makes the rifle much more dependable. Allows for less cleaning, less sluggish running when dirty and allows Joe to fix a stoppage with out burning his hands…

As for being able to tell a difference in operation, I could not tell until about 700 rounds. The 416 upper was running much smoother then the M4 upper.
:2c:

Good post.

Can't beat a piston!

 

[8'Duece]

Good post.

Can't beat a piston!

Agree, good post on the basics of the gas impingement system vs a gas piston operation.

Since I haven't seen nor operated the gas piston system then I have a few questions regarding the basic operation.

1. Does the Operating rod actually move back and forth from the gas pressure therefore the op rod is pushing on the gas key vs gas pushing on the gas key ?

2. If the above is true, then how long is the actual operating rod ? It would seem very long to push the bolt assembly all the way back into the extension. I would think that the operating rod would possible bend or break with enough fire time behind the weapon. (I have one POF rifle that I witnessed the op rod bend after 500 rounds during a marksman class)

I understand that the gas is being ported and released at the sight block rather than through the gas tube back to the gas key of the bolt carrier, which is the reason that carbon fouling and heat transfer are not present on the bolt and carrier after sustained fire. That's a huge plus and I don't doubt that round counts are lengthened substantially with this operating system.

Hope that didn't sound too ignorant of the system.

 

[digrar]

LOL, I went from an M16A1 to the Steyr AUG, the M series are a dream to strip compared to the Steyr. Steyr has an insane amount of parts when stripped something like 13 or so!

Barrel = 4 parts

Butt = 4

Bolt group = 4 :uhh:

Receiver = 1

What did I miss Irish?

I loved the M16 for its simplicity.

Sounds about right.
I only spent about 6 weeks with an A2, but I thought the steyr was easier to strip down and I was still pretty new to the steyr at that stage.

 

[pardus]

Agree, good post on the basics of the gas impingement system vs a gas piston operation.

Since I haven't seen nor operated the gas piston system then I have a few questions regarding the basic operation.

1. Does the Operating rod actually move back and forth from the gas pressure therefore the op rod is pushing on the gas key vs gas pushing on the gas key ?

2. If the above is true, then how long is the actual operating rod ? It would seem very long to push the bolt assembly all the way back into the extension. I would think that the operating rod would possible bend or break with enough fire time behind the weapon. (I have one POF rifle that I witnessed the op rod bend after 500 rounds during a marksman class)

I understand that the gas is being ported and released at the sight block rather than through the gas tube back to the gas key of the bolt carrier, which is the reason that carbon fouling and heat transfer are not present on the bolt and carrier after sustained fire. That's a huge plus and I don't doubt that round counts are lengthened substantially with this operating system.

Hope that didn't sound too ignorant of the system.

Totally ignorant you fucker! lol ;)

Scroll to the bottom of this link for a good display on both systems...

http://www.lwrifles.com/tech.php

Op rods and gas pistons are at varying lengths, the Steyr has a short piston and two op rods that are solid.
The FN and AK have long pistons that are solid.

Never heard of a gas piston/op rod breaking/bending before though I'm sure it's possible likeyou said.
The POF op rod looks pretty bloody thin to me.
Think of an FN or an AK, both Gas pistons and we know they are both magnificent reliable rifles.

Sounds about right.
I only spent about 6 weeks with an A2, but I thought the steyr was easier to strip down and I was still pretty new to the steyr at that stage.

Really? wow.

The A1 just had a removable bolt group for field stripping which was 5 parts IIRC including the cocking handle/lever thingy.

Is the A2 different to this?

 

[8'Duece]

Totally ignorant you fucker! lol ;)

Scroll to the bottom of this link for a good display on both systems...

http://www.lwrifles.com/tech.php

Op rods and gas pistons are at varying lengths, the Steyr has a short piston and two op rods that are solid.
The FN and AK have long pistons that are solid.

Never heard of a gas piston/op rod breaking/bending before though I'm sure it's possible likeyou said.
The POF op rod looks pretty bloody thin to me.
Think of an FN or an AK, both Gas pistons and we know they are both magnificent reliable rifles.




Really? wow.

The A1 just had a removable bolt group for field stripping which was 5 parts IIRC including the cocking handle/lever thingy.

Is the A2 different to this?

Ok Mate !

I just stripped my AK down (First time) and it all makes sense now. :doh:>:{

The op rod has suffient gas pressure to provide enough velocity on the bolt carrier group to cycle the weapon efficiently.

I'm assuming those gas key's are staked pretty darn good or the gas key is not a separate part but machined as one piece with the carrier.

Thanks for the link.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Agree, good post on the basics of the gas impingement system vs a gas piston operation.

Since I haven't seen nor operated the gas piston system then I have a few questions regarding the basic operation.

1. Does the Operating rod actually move back and forth from the gas pressure therefore the op rod is pushing on the gas key vs gas pushing on the gas key ?

2. If the above is true, then how long is the actual operating rod ? It would seem very long to push the bolt assembly all the way back into the extension. I would think that the operating rod would possible bend or break with enough fire time behind the weapon. (I have one POF rifle that I witnessed the op rod bend after 500 rounds during a marksman class)

1. YES

2.The length of the operating rod will depend on the length of the barrel/ gas block from the bolt. I am unsure on the specs on the 416, but I will post them as soon as I get a reply to an email ;)!

As for Operating rod’s breaking, I have not heard nor seen it. I put about 2500 rounds through a 416 upper we were testing. The only issues we found was, that the Op rod and gas block needed cleaning after every 1000 rounds.

 

[digrar]

The A1 just had a removable bolt group for field stripping which was 5 parts IIRC including the cocking handle/lever thingy.

Is the A2 different to this?

I was thinking of the full strip. Taking off the hand guards, the small pin in the bolt, separating the upper and lower etc.

 

[8'Duece]

1. YES

2.The length of the operating rod will depend on the length of the barrel/ gas block from the bolt. I am unsure on the specs on the 416, but I will post them as soon as I get a reply to an email ;)!

As for Operating rod’s breaking, I have not heard nor seen it. I put about 2500 rounds through a 416 upper we were testing. The only issues we found was, that the Op rod and gas block needed cleaning after every 1000 rounds.

Thanks Brother !!!

 

[pardus]

I was thinking of the full strip. Taking off the hand guards, the small pin in the bolt, separating the upper and lower etc.

Ah roger, that handguards are a fucking pain in the arse!

Th rest was easy, I was always nervous about that bloody tiny pin in the bolt though.

 

[Ajax]

The question that needs to be answered is where are the 416's that are being turned in headed to? If they're just going to sit in an arms room somewhere for the next couple years, then what was the point of this action?

Remember a few years ago when staff types had their panties in a wad everytime they saw someone with velcro on their sleeve? And now what? EVERYONE has it. I would bet money that the same people who ordered the 416 turn-in will be the first to hail the replacement of the M4 as a bold new policy and a great step in forging warrior eliteness and other Army fluff in a couple years.

Fucking officers...

 

[8'Duece]

The question that needs to be answered is where are the 416's that are being turned in headed to? If they're just going to sit in an arms room somewhere for the next couple years, then what was the point of this action?

Remember a few years ago when staff types had their panties in a wad everytime they saw someone with velcro on their sleeve? And now what? EVERYONE has it. I would bet money that the same people who ordered the 416 turn-in will be the first to hail the replacement of the M4 as a bold new policy and a great step in forging warrior eliteness and other Army fluff in a couple years.

Fucking officers...

I'm with ya. Why turn in a perfectly sound weapon system without any rational logic behind the decision ?

They should be in some SF Groups armory ready for deployment or other SOF force within the structure of USASOCOM.

Beats the hell out of me, but what do I know ?

 

[Ravage]

Remember a few years ago when staff types had their panties in a wad everytime they saw someone with velcro on their sleeve? And now what? EVERYONE has it. I would bet money that the same people who ordered the 416 turn-in will be the first to hail the replacement of the M4 as a bold new policy and a great step in forging warrior eliteness and other Army fluff in a couple years.

Fucking officers...

Am I understanding this right ? they want regular units to look more "SF-ish" with all kinds of super gear ? Hell and I thought it's only in my military....:doh:

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I'm with ya. Why turn in a perfectly sound weapon system without any rational logic behind the decision ?

They should be in some SF Groups armory ready for deployment or other SOF force within the structure of USASOCOM.

Beats the hell out of me, but what do I know ?

Yep b/c we would not want any other ground combat units to have a sound weapon system…

The only thing sooooooooo special about the 416 is the round count between cleanings… You super hi speed Velcro and hair gel wearers can have your stupid 416, I like my M4 any damn way;)

PS. I will gladly give you back the velcro shoulder pockets too!

 

[Rapid]

'Scuse me, I heard from some guy that the Army has also confiscated some 416s from actual SOF units? Any truth to this?

Edit: wait, I guess it is right if the following is true:

The truth is that the SMU community did it legally, but not the traditional Army way (the expensive, 5 to 10 year, political Army way). But when some senators (Coburn included) asked the acting Secretary of the Army and Vice Chief of Staff of the Army (Gen Cody) why the SMUs have these better weapons and the regular Army is investing $375 Million in the M4, they responded that the SMUs and other SOF units (many SF Groups) were not authorized to purchase the 416s. The Vice COS (Gen Cody) ordered all units (including Delta) to stop using the HK416s due to political backlash. Most units (including the AWG) all but refused and gave every rebuttal possible. Delta fought it because it could technically be considered in their charter – but this wasn’t settled until recently. Two Tier-1 units were the only units allowed to keep their HK416s.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1111

Is that correct? Kinda sucks... foreign countries are getting it before US SOF, while the latter is being bound by political BS.

 

[moobob]

Yep b/c we would not want any other ground combat units to have a sound weapon system…

The only thing sooooooooo special about the 416 is the round count between cleanings… You super hi speed Velcro and hair gel wearers can have your stupid 416, I like my M4 any damn way;)

PS. I will gladly give you back the velcro shoulder pockets too!

I'll take the shoulder pockets. Those can be semi-useful.

How about the lower leg pockets? What idiot came up with those? I know of people that had full-size pockets there to separate their demo stuff to get some distance between stuff on your body so it doesn't go boom.

I think somebody thought oh hey, some sweet SOF guys have lower leg pockets, lets put them on the ACUs! Except that the pockets on the ACUs are too small to put anything in them but a cell phone...

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Except that the pockets on the ACUs are too small to put anything in them but a cell phone...

Oh but the CSM better find a PT belt in one of those pockets