California preparing to go to war with the NCAA?

Devildoc said:
But the people in charge are the same ones who run the NCAA.... OK then, use the NCAA bball tourney in March (trademarked March Madness).....

I know you think (or at least how I am reading it) the NCAA is some sort of all-protecting, benevolent organization who has everyone's best interests at heart. I absolutely think they think they do, but they suffer cognitive dissonance because they do not. Plenty of individual student-athletes and colleges who get the benefit of the doubt or unduly fucked as examples.

Granted I have a bias as having worked at a tutor for the athletic department at two universities, and with medical staff with one of them, so my opinion is mostly formed from what I have read and what I have seen. Your mileage may vary and that's OK.
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I don't really understand what you mean by they're the same. They're clearly not. None of the people that run the CFP work for the NCAA in any capacity. Staff Directory - College Football Playoff

Have many worked for the NCAA or various conferences? Sure. That's collegiate athletics. But they're not the same and they're run wholly separately. Now, is the selection committee biased? That is a separate discussion.

I know what our systems are at ASU and what they were at VMI. There are the schools that are out there to win at all costs (SEC), and then there's research Universities. I don't know how Duke is set up. But the NCAA itself, the staff works to run the multitude of competitions. The purpose of scholarship athletics are two fold-marketing and giving folks the opportunity to gain a free or substantially reduced tuition bill through competing in Athletics. When you look at the benefits package of an NCAA Football or Basketball player, they're getting way more than the dollar value of their scholarship from the university.

Also, the schools can really do what they want. It is not their job to be the minor leagues for any professional league. Again, scholarship athletics has been second only to the GI Bill for shifting the socio economic status of tens of thousands of student-athletes that never go pro. The system has done way more good than the minuscule amounts of bad.
 
ThunderHorse said:
I don't really understand what you mean by they're the same. They're clearly not. None of the people that run the CFP work for the NCAA in any capacity. Staff Directory - College Football Playoff

Have many worked for the NCAA or various conferences? Sure. That's collegiate athletics. But they're not the same and they're run wholly separately. Now, is the selection committee biased? That is a separate discussion.

I know what our systems are at ASU and what they were at VMI. There are the schools that are out there to win at all costs (SEC), and then there's research Universities. I don't know how Duke is set up. But the NCAA itself, the staff works to run the multitude of competitions. The purpose of scholarship athletics are two fold-marketing and giving folks the opportunity to gain a free or substantially reduced tuition bill through competing in Athletics. When you look at the benefits package of an NCAA Football or Basketball player, they're getting way more than the dollar value of their scholarship from the university.

Also, the schools can really do what they want. It is not their job to be the minor leagues for any professional league. Again, scholarship athletics has been second only to the GI Bill for shifting the socio economic status of tens of thousands of student-athletes that never go pro. The system has done way more good than the minuscule amounts of bad.
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Athletic scholarships aren't benevolence packages; they would not be awarded if the teams/schools didn't need the players, and if the player doesn't produce, the scholarship could be pulled. It's about making money for the university (either through sports attendance, apparel, marketing, applications, whatever), and that's it. Academics is a distant second. It's quid-pro-quo, but there's a lot more quid than quo.

Just because the system has done more good than bad does not mean you don't correct or overlook the bad; two wrongs don't make it right. You say the schools can do what they want (and they do), but what about what the student-athletes want? Why is the pat answer "you have a scholarship; don't look a gift horse in the mouth." The NCAA ain't advocating for what's in the students' best interests. No one is. And the nature of this thread is about trying something that might change it, even just a little.

I would like to see NO one get athletic scholarships. But that will never happen.
 
Devildoc said:
Athletic scholarships aren't benevolence packages; they would not be awarded if the teams/schools didn't need the players, and if the player doesn't produce, the scholarship could be pulled. It's about making money for the university (either through sports attendance, apparel, marketing, applications, whatever), and that's it. Academics is a distant second. It's quid-pro-quo, but there's a lot more quid than quo.

Just because the system has done more good than bad does not mean you don't correct or overlook the bad; two wrongs don't make it right. You say the schools can do what they want (and they do), but what about what the student-athletes want? Why is the pat answer "you have a scholarship; don't look a gift horse in the mouth." The NCAA ain't advocating for what's in the students' best interests. No one is. And the nature of this thread is about trying something that might change it, even just a little.

I would like to see NO one get athletic scholarships. But that will never happen.
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Just like every other student, it is incumbent upon the student-athlete to seize their education. Scholarship athletes have so many more resources at their disposal that enables their ability to seize that education compared to the regular student. When I went to VMI, we had guys on our football team in engineering, the program literally created English majors overnight. And yet these guys are now out in the work force in engineering jobs being wholly successful. Because they seized their education.
 
ThunderHorse said:
Just like every other student, it is incumbent upon the student-athlete to seize their education. Scholarship athletes have so many more resources at their disposal that enables their ability to seize that education compared to the regular student. When I went to VMI, we had guys on our football team in engineering, the program literally created English majors overnight. And yet these guys are now out in the work force in engineering jobs being wholly successful. Because they seized their education.
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That very statement is part of the problem between the haves/have-not in higher education. I say this where I work, where I see--and know--people who in one year will be making $20 million with a basketball. There's a problem in that.
 
There are a few things that keep dancing around in my head - part of it is a byproduct of my rampant cynicism and some of it is genuine curiosity at the back side of collegiate athletic programs.

-I dont believe that the NCAA is going to give an inch if it costs them a cent - so any deal they make is going to cost SOMEBODY a few bucks
-Universities that have football programs that generate 10's of millions of dollars in revenue have lots of other programs that COST money that dont generate anywhere NEAR the money it costs to keep them going.
-Colleges that spend 10-20-30-50 million dollars on a football program are not going to "pay" athletes without raising someone else's tuition costs.

So, what are the unintended consequences?
-Do the Georgia Bulldogs shut down the Equestrian, Rugby, Hockey, and Ultimate Frisbee Teams because Jake, Fromm-statefarm decided that if he don't get a bonus that he will transfer to Auburn?
-Am I going to have to sell my house and cars and take a job delivering pizzas to help pay off my kids student loan debt because someone like Rod Blankenship kicked enough field goals to drive up tuition costs?

Maybe the non-profit creating academic scholarships take a back seat to Athletic scholarships since only one of those two students is really worth investing in.
Who cares about physics if you have a 225 pound english major that runs a 4.5 in the forty?
Of course - we can fix ALL of that by just letting Bernie Sanders and the Squad take over the education system; imagine how great THAT would be:
Free Health Care
Free college
Free Refills on soft drinks at the stadium
whatever you want the gubmint will give you

I'm fascinated that the Peoples Republic of California is trying to force the NCAA and University system to give a little taste of capitalism to the students (that are learning how great socialism can be). Some of the same institutions clamoring to give these hyper-male, toxic-masculinity athletes a huge paycheck are the same ones that would normally tell you that "violent ground acquisition games such as football are in fact a crypto-fascist metaphor for nuclear war"
I really am confused at the irony of it all.

But maybe -
-just maybe - some of these huge profits offset some of the institutions other expenses. Maybe the fact that some of these folks that are walking away with a 'free' quarter of a million dollar education because they are big and run fast are what allows the school to offer quarter million dollar scholarships to nerds like Sheldon Cooper and Leonard Hofstadter. Maybe that 30 million dollar sportsball program is how they pay the professors that run the doctoral program in minority gender studies and underwater basket weaving.

I dont know the answer - I bought my degree from an affordable online college and paid for it with 30 years of military service. I do know that the sports fan inside of my head died off years and years ago, so part of me just don't care about college OR pro sports. My family loves the Georgia Bulldogs, so I pretend to watch. In reality, I'm smoking some type of meat on the grill, sipping on some bourbon and pretending to care about whats happening. I don't follow bowl games at all and cant even remember who won the Super-Ball and World Serious last year.

What I do have is a kid getting ready for college that doesn't play sports.
What I do follow is the rising cost of college tuition.
The possibility that my kids options for an higher education might be financially limited because of astronomical increases in tuition in the interest of a better sportsball program and it makes me worry that America is just one step closer to just not giving a shit about anything but free rides and good entertainment.

I'm not saying that I am even close to being correct - I am only describing the view from my foxhole.
 
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@Box you have some salient points; many of which I agree. Do you know what norovirus is? I have it, so I am leaving work to go home. I will speak to some of your points later. Bottom line: I don't know that it needs to be an either/or proposition. I think schools, students and student-athletes, and the NCAA can do it right where everyone benefits. Sports revenue usually offsets athletic expenses or goes into a a general fund, so academic scholarships don't (usually) come out of that pot. But I think schools' ever-increasing tuition isn't tied to its athletics. See: Ivy League (they don't do sports scholarships).

Good post, and good thread.
 
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