Don't be like this guy.

[Marauder06]

"I'm not really good at all that intel stuff, but you know what I'm REALLY good at? Running fast. So let's all go do that."

As the new commander of a Military Intelligence Company, I determined to change the culture within my organization. In my estimation, the unit needed to shift more to mental and physical toughness, and move on from a year of reset. To do this, I placed a heavy emphasis on soldiering first, and being an Intelligence professional second.

One of the first actions I took to shake things up was a plan to “smoke” the unit during a Company run.

"Sir, you humiliated us." - A Commander's Lesson in Leadership - The Military Leader

 

[Kraut783]

Idiot....

 

[SpitfireV]

At least he took the feedback on board and did something about it though. That's more than I can say for a lot of so-called leaders out in the world.

Even if the initial decision is a bit baffling.

 

[Teufel]

Is a seven minute mile a smoke fest? I'm a large (200+ lbs) middle aged amphibious mammal and I have no problem keeping a 7 minute mile pace.

 

[Etype]

Is a seven minute mile a smoke fest? I'm a large (200+ lbs) middle aged amphibious mammal and I have no problem keeping a 7 minute mile pace.

For an MI unit, maybe. There's a huge disparity between the combat arms units (especially airborne or other light units) and support units in the Army as far as physical fitness is concerned.

 

[BigNutz]

It frustrates me that the leadership culture we live and work in dictates that a new leader MUST do something to ensure senior leaderships knows he/she lifted their leg on the tree. This despite any existing level of morale or effectiveness that already exists. I saw this explicitly with a senior leader (2-star) that we had to live with for about 2 years and is finally moving on. I get it, if you're not improving your dying. Roger Copy Check, but goddamn it, it better be broke before you try and fix it...

I know, awesome command of the English language...right?!?!?

 

[CDG]

Is a seven minute mile a smoke fest? I'm a large (200+ lbs) middle aged amphibious mammal and I have no problem keeping a 7 minute mile pace.

Apparently for all the females it was. A sustained 7 minute mile is one thing, but this was just a single mile at that pace. This post could probably also go over in the Women In Combat Arms/SOF thread.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I use to do sub 7min mile paces on the APFT, just kick it out for the test and puke after. But for anything more I was a dependable 8 min pace guy.

 

[busyworks]

Is a seven minute mile a smoke fest? I'm a large (200+ lbs) middle aged amphibious mammal and I have no problem keeping a 7 minute mile pace.

For a single mile?? hell no. This is coming from a COMMS guy that was with the wing too..

I think the Females had no right to be upset with anyone but themselves in this situation. but, whatever.

 

[Marauder06]

This is a case of knowing yourself and knowing your unit. I've been in the Army over 21 years, and while much of it was in SOF, I served in conventional units as well. There is no mixed-gender, conventional combat support unit that has a "standard" of a 7-minute pace. There is no conventional brigade that is going to run at a 7-minute pace. Save that for PT tests and ability group runs. The commander started his article off saying how he wanted to emphasize "soldiering first" but what he really wanted was to show everyone what a bad ass he was. Individual and crew-level collective training is an NCO responsibility. He should have clearly articulated his intent to the company leaders, and let them come up with a PT plan to build up to the commander's collective training objective. If this guy's main goal in life was to lead PT, he should have been a squad leader instead of a company commander. He needs to lift his sights a bit higher and trying to show off.

 

[AWP]

He should have clearly articulated his intent to the company leaders, and let them come up with a PT plan to build up to the commander's collective training objective. If this guy's main goal in life was to lead PT, he should have been a squad leader instead of a company commander. He needs to lift his sights a bit higher and trying to show off.

THIS.

 

[Teufel]

This is a case of knowing yourself and knowing your unit. I've been in the Army over 21 years, and while much of it was in SOF, I served in conventional units as well. There is no mixed-gender, conventional combat support unit that has a "standard" of a 7-minute pace. There is no conventional brigade that is going to run at a 7-minute pace. Save that for PT tests and ability group runs. The commander started his article off saying how he wanted to emphasize "soldiering first" but what he really wanted was to show everyone what a bad ass he was. Individual and crew-level collective training is an NCO responsibility. He should have clearly articulated his intent to the company leaders, and let them come up with a PT plan to build up to the commander's collective training objective. If this guy's main goal in life was to lead PT, he should have been a squad leader instead of a company commander. He needs to lift his sights a bit higher and trying to show off.

You are one hundred percent correct as usual Mara. I intended to comment on this commanders definition of a "smoke fest". His approach to leadership through PT was way off mark.

There are other ways to show off your fitness as a commander if that's your thing. A friend of mine was a CAAT platoon commander and his platoon was broken down into two sections. He would run his PFT with the first section: 100 sit-ups, 20 pull ups and a three mile run in 17:30. He would wait until the last runner made it across the finish line and knock out a second PFT with his second section: 100 sit-ups, 20 pull ups and a sub 18 minute three miler. He was and still is a beast. He lead by example and not through PT shaming.

 

[compforce]

So this article hits on one of my biggest pet peeves. The leadership emphasis on PT as the primary measurement of a Soldier's effectiveness.

Let me ask a question for thoughtful discussion... We'll assume both are male just to remove the gender variable from the equation

Two SUPPORT soldiers, each with 5 years experience in the position and the same date of rank, are assigned to the company and you've been given first choice to add one to your team/squad. Both have the basic soldier skills down pat and can be depended on to be team players. For this exercise, we assume that they will ALWAYS have the same description. Training them up on their weakness will have the effect of causing their strength to deteriorate. (there's a reason for this statement, it happens to be exactly what happens in real life).

The first one is a PT stud. 300 on the PT test is just getting warmed up. BUT he knows absolutely nothing about his job. Nada, zip, zilch. The guy is a mental rock and despite having experience, he can't seem to perform the basic MOS specific tasks.

The second one barely passes the PT test... 2 out of 3 times. He fails 1 in 3, passing just enough to avoid the remedial PT group. BUT he's the god of his MOS. He's the guy that not only knows the tasks, but understands the theory behind them and can apply it in unconventional ways to achieve results that are out of reach for anyone else in the same position.

Which one would you draft for your squad/team?

I have a reason for asking the question, but would like to see some of the responses before I sway the vote.

 

[AWP]

The second one barely passes the PT test... 2 out of 3 times. He fails 1 in 3, passing just enough to avoid the remedial PT group. BUT he's the god of his MOS. He's the guy that not only knows the tasks, but understands the theory behind them and can apply it in unconventional ways to achieve results that are out of reach for anyone else in the same position.

Which one would you draft for your squad/team?

I've been there and I'll almost always take the SME. You can drag his PT scores up easier and faster than you can the guy who can't/ won't/ is slow to learn.

As you know, that's not how the world works.

My OCS class graduated 41. Everyone in the top 10 had perfect or nearly perfect APFT scores. One could barely lead, another assaulted a fellow candidate, and a third has poor leadership scores and his academics were among the lowest in the class. He was something like 6th or 7th in my class. Physical fitness is vital and a good benchmark of how much effort a soldier puts into "the total package." Again, you can drag the physically weak guy up a notch or two easier than a rock. There's zero reason a guy in the bottom third or even quarter should graduate near the top based on PT.

 

[Centermass]

Which one would you draft for your squad/team?

The third guy.......:die:

 

[compforce]

The third guy.......:die:

Not an option. In this scenario you have to take one because you and your biggest rival are the only two with an open slot. The third guy was assigned to BN HQ because he's a slug that's only there long enough to be chaptered out... but hey, if you want him the CSM may just work with you

Physical fitness is vital and a good benchmark of how much effort a soldier puts into "the total package." Again, you can drag the physically weak guy up a notch or two easier than a rock.

That's a part of my question. How do you spend his training time? Do you let him continue to study and lead the way at his job while continuing to be barely acceptable on the PT side? Or do you spend the time on PT, knowing that it necessarily means that his proficiency at the MOS is going to be lesser than it could be? There are still only 24 hours in the day, you can't alter that parameter.

 

[AWP]

That's a part of my question. How do you spend his training time? Do you let him continue to study and lead the way at his job while continuing to be barely acceptable on the PT side? Or do you spend the time on PT, knowing that it necessarily means that his proficiency at the MOS is going to be lesser than it could be? There are still only 24 hours in the day, you can't alter that parameter.

Early in the morning or before his duty day. If the unit doesn't have organized PT the soldier's development is his NCO's responsibility. Deployed readiness becomes a different challenge, but it shouldn't be an issue at home station. Guard guys are in a little different position, but it is still an NCO's responsibility.

The big question: Are his low PT scores hindering the mission? If he's passing his APFT and they are not, then you have a sticky situation. When I was an NCO, if my soldiers passed there was no discussion save for how their PT scores factor into promotions.

I will say back when we ran SOCCE missions at JRTC (a lifetime ago) or anything directly involving the B Teams, we wouldn't send out the guys on the bottom end of any spectrum. We took several factors into play and generally struck a balance with FOB/ AOB impact (did we short ourselves or the "customer"), personalities (the guys who can get along with others, "locker room" chemistry), PT, resourcefulness, etc.

 

[compforce]

Early in the morning or before his duty day. If the unit doesn't have organized PT the soldier's development is his NCO's responsibility. Deployed readiness becomes a different challenge, but it shouldn't be an issue at home station. Guard guys are in a little different position, but it is still an NCO's responsibility.

So now he is effectively being punished with extra duty if he's going to maintain the same level of proficiency in his MOS... Oh no soldier, we expect you to continue to be the shining star you are when doing your job, but you're going to have a duty day that is two hours longer than everyone else's so you can raise your PT scores. That way leads to resentment and lack of retention of the SME. If you allocate part of the morning for additional PT then he can't keep up the same level of study on the MOS side. It's a balancing act and the problem is that the Military, and Army in particular, always err on the side of PT rather than actually knowing how to do your job and trying to excel at it.

The big question: Are his low PT scores hindering the mission? If he's passing his APFT and they are not, then you have a sticky situation. When I was an NCO, if my soldiers passed there was no discussion save for how their PT scores factor into promotions.

Back in the day they used a combination of SQT's (Skill Qualification Tests) along with PT and other factors for promotions. They dropped the requirement to know your job to be promoted when they dropped the SQT side. Now PT has a much bigger impact on promotion than actually knowing what the hell you are doing. It's also used as the primary benchmark of a soldier. Before anything else, PT comes first in everyone's minds. Again, not talking about Combat Arms. We're talking about everyone else.

The standard Army answer is exactly what @Centermass said. We'd rather have a mediocre performer on the job with solid PT scores than someone that is incredible at their job, but weak on the PT side.

 

[SpaceshipDoorGunner]

Your question really depends on the supported unit and what his MOS demanded. Barring extraneous circumstances, why is it hard for one to get better at his job and the other to just get his ass in shape? Both are basic tasks?

Seems like a typical Army answer but they are both basic tasks. I don't think it dismisses that basic requirement when you are more proficient in one or the other. That's still a deficiency... I think all the rules of the road are laid before you and if one wished to excel in this career field they would strive for excellence in both, right? I know people that meet both descriptions and have seen PT studs get picked up and SMEs passed up. The military isn't for everyone and it's far from perfect. As for those SMEs, they might as well get out and put their knowledge to use in a solid, PT-less career field?

 

[busyworks]

I may be the oddball here, but if your unit has a large portion of individuals who literally cannot suck it up and bust out a sub 7 minute mile once in a blue moon, then you have a serious fitness problem that needs to be addressed. Did he go about it the right way? definitely not, but I literally do not see anything too extreme with this article.

We had similar programs in my mixed-gender, conventional unit. This literally doesn't strike me as anything out of the ordinary, other than it being implanted directly by the company commander.