Healthcare!

[TLDR20]

When I first read this statement, I read "most people look at healthcare as a right". A much different and significantly more controversial statement.


Interesting. Do most consumers know a lot about cars? homes? etc. Do they educate themselves on these major purchases? Why doesn't the same behavior exist when it comes to something so critically important as their personal health.

.

Again not a personal you; do you have the time or ability to take a biochem class this month before you decide on whether or not to take a diagnostic test, how about an in depth(400-500 level) physiology class? How about a microbiology class before deciding if you need to get antibiotics? That is the kind of education you need to truly understand basic care decisions. There is no car and driver or HGTV for healthcare. There is real education.

88 percent of Americans are healthcare illiterate.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

88 percent of Americans are healthcare illiterate.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you. Where are you getting that number and what does it represent?

I admit that I am illiterate in regards to the Obama/Trump plans because I don't have a personal interest in those plans. But...I am very up on what my company sponsored plan do and do not provide for me.

 

[TLDR20]

While I don't necessarily disagree with you. Where are you getting that number and what does it represent?

I admit that I am illiterate in regards to the Obama/Trump plans because I don't have a personal interest in those plans. But...I am very up on what my company sponsored plan do and do not provide for me.

There is a hyperlink I added, it didn't stick the first time.

 

[Blizzard]

The difference is your house and car are not your life, literally. People can understand write ups on cars, have people that easily can explain a house fix. I can explain your heart to you in baby language, but that doesn't explain why physiologically you need x procedure in a way that you can really say no to the procedure. You also can't shop for care especially in a hospital setting.

Agree, ones health should take precedent over home or car. Yet, it doesn't.

But I disagree with the idea that one needs to be an expert to understand health impacts and procedures. Consumers do, however, need to be informed. Sites like www.mayoclinic.org, www.webmd.com, etc. can aid consumers with this to some extent but, of course, they are not a substitute for care. They can aid in allowing consumers to ask informed questions. Just as when setting up an effective security/defense, becoming informed on health care issues requires a multi-layered approach. Providers play a role, the consumer plays a role, etc. Most health care scenarios don't require the urgent decisions of an emergency room (which, by the way, should not serve as a primary care provider).

Most family practice doctors won't accept a patient without insurance, so asking what they charge is a non issue, because you cannot be seen without insurance...

Why is that? I'm not entirely sure that's a true statement but, for the sake of discussion, let's say that it is. From a provider perspective, insurance is a method of reimbursing the patient for fees paid to the doctor; it's not a substitute for payment. Requiring insurance coverage in order to receive services only exacerbates the problem of delivery of health care services; the core problem.

 

[TLDR20]

Agree, ones health should take precedent over home or car. Yet, it doesn't.

But I disagree with the idea that one needs to be an expert to understand health impacts and procedures. Consumers do, however, need to be informed. Sites like www.mayoclinic.org, www.webmd.com, etc. can aid consumers with this to some extent but, of course, they are not a substitute for care. They can aid in allowing consumers to ask informed questions. Just as when setting up an effective security/defense, becoming informed on health care issues requires a multi-layered approach. Providers play a role, the consumer plays a role, etc. Most health care scenarios don't require the urgent decisions of an emergency room (which, by the way, should not serve as a primary care provider).


Why is that? I'm not entirely sure that's a true statement but, for the sake of discussion, let's say that it is. From a provider perspective, insurance is a method of reimbursing the patient for fees paid to the doctor; it's not a substitute for payment. Requiring insurance coverage in order to receive services only exacerbates the problem of delivery of health care services; the core problem.

I think you have that backwards. Insurance pays the provider for services, these fees are agreed upon via an prearranged agreement. They only take insurance because it guarntees at least partial payment(via a copay)

Your ideas about improving health literacy are great, the problem is people don't understand what they read. 88%. Print media(including websites) is the least understandable.

 

[Blizzard]

I think you have that backwards. Insurance pays the provider for services, these fees are agreed upon via an prearranged agreement.

Agree. My statement was not worded well.

Insurance may cover part or, in rare cases, perhaps all the fees associated with the services provided. But, regardless of coverage, the consumer is still ultimately always responsible for the services provided. Point is, insurance can be used to subsidize payment for services but the consumer is still ultimately responsible for covering the costs of those services. That's probably a more clear statement of what I was really attempting to convey.

 

[TLDR20]

Agree. I may not have worded it well (should've removed "patient").

Insurance may cover part or, in rare cases, perhaps all the fees associated with the services provided. But, regardless of coverage, the consumer is still ultimately always responsible for the services provided. Point is, insurance can be used to subsidize payment for services but the consumer is still ultimately responsible for covering the costs of those services. That's probably a more clear statement of what I was really attempting to convey.

For most/all of the plans that qualify under the ACA, primary care physicians are covered for routine care, with a small co-pay. That means routine physicals, vaccinations, sick visits, lab work. All covered almost 100% via insurance.

 

[Devildoc]

Your ideas about improving health literacy are great, the problem is people don't understand what they read. 88%. Print media(including websites) is the least understandable.

Not only do they often not understand, most people just don't care to research beyond Dr. Google.

Education happens different ways: consumers can be more health literate, and consumers can read publically-reported data that various alphabet soup agencies mandate (ARHQ, NDNQI, etc.). To the latter I think it is fucking ridiculous to think that a patient with chest pain is going to stop by his laptop or whip out the smart phone to determine which local hospital has the fastest door-to-EKG time. But that's a different soapbox and a different thread.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Basically we have some people in here going: people are just too willfully ignorant to know what kind of care they need and the coverage they need.

As far as the care is concerned: I pay the medical provider to explain to me why I need a specific procedure so that bad shit doesn't happen. It is your job to bring me up to speed if you happen to be the MD in the room.

I've had health insurance my whole life thanks to my mother's awesome employer based coverage and then the Army.

Is healthcare a right? If you are brought to an ER I'd say yes.

Is health coverage a right? Privilege, you have to pay for it.

Elimination of state borders when it comes to insurers would be a start. Require a baseline coverage that providers must fulfill for those with pre-existing conditions.

Did the ACA actually make healthcare less expensive? In some places yes, in some places no.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I will say that I do think there needs to be some regulations on the cost aspects of health care. $5 aspirin and $20 bandaids are causing alot of the problems. My best bud, shattered his arm in motor cycle wreck. He was in Thailand, and they pinned his shit back together, he stayed in a luxury suet for a few days, treated like royalty and probably some of the best medical care in the world. No medical insurance and it cost him $10k, it would have cost a couple hundred grand here in the United States. Now I get the employee cost difference, I get the space and time cost difference and I get the mark up to cover costs. But no, a aspirin doesn't cost $5, and a bandaid doesn't cost $20, and an x-ray doesn't cost $1,500.

$.02

 

[TLDR20]

I will say that I do think there needs to be some regulations on the cost aspects of health care. $5 aspirin and $20 bandaids are causing alot of the problems. My best bud, shattered his arm in motor cycle wreck. He was in Thailand, and they pinned his shit back together, he stayed in a luxury sweet for a few days, treated like royalty and probably some of the best medical care in the world. No medical insurance and it cost him $10k, it would have cost a couple hundred grand here in the United States. Now I get the employee cost difference, I get the space and time cost difference and I get the mark up to cover costs. But no, a aspirin doesn't cost $5, and a bandaid doesn't cost $20, and an x-ray doesn't cost $1,500.

$.02

It does when two of the biggest buyers of drugs in our country, Medicaid and Medicare are prohibited by law from negotiating the costs of those drugs. We can thank the GOP for that gem, which was part of the Medicare expansion under GWB.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

It does when two of the biggest buyers of drugs in our country, Medicaid and Medicare are prohibited by law from negotiating the costs of those drugs. We can thank the GOP for that gem, which was part of the Medicare expansion under GWB.

I wasn't aware of that, and think that's dumb as shit. Basically health care needs to be completely reworked from the laws and regulations stand point.

Now if we could stop the lobbyists and special interest donation from happening we may get somewhere.

Trying to blame the left or the right on health care, is like debating who was more evil, Saddam or Osama.

 

[Devildoc]

I wasn't aware of that, and think that's dumb as shit. Basically health care needs to be completely reworked from the laws and regulations stand point.

Now if we could stop the lobbyists and special interest donation from happening we may get somewhere.

Trying to blame the left or the right on health care, is like debating who was more evil, Saddam or Osama.

It is a house of cards, and each card has a name: GOP, DNC, lobby, laws, litigation, insurance companies, Big Pharma....pull one of those cards out, the whole thing will collapse. None of the parts is particularly interested in reform.

Lower costs? Allow Medicare/Medicaid to negotiate drug prices. Make the insurance companies have the balls to say, "we aren't going to pay over $1 per aspirin; anything over that, you eat the cost."

It CAN happen, but too many piggies sucking at the teat of Big Medicine.

 

[Dienekes]

I could not agree with Blizzard more. Coverage is a big deal, but considering the problem as a whole, it's like putting a band-aid on the plague. What really needs to be attacked is healthcare costs. Why in the living hell does a saline solution aka saltwater cost so damn much?

Consider pharmaceutical companies. Yea we've all heard about recouping the R&D costs, etc, but has anyone considered that American pharmaceutical companies basically supply most of the world? Well when medicines are kept low cost by price controls in so many countries (most importantly Europe and Canada) but the US, it's the American consumer that bears the burden.

Why do doctors get paid so much? Well, they earned it. They took on $100k+ of debt to learn to take care of your ass and then had to go through residency. But why does med school cost so much in the first place?

There are so so so many factors that go into healthcare costs that I don't know if anyone could know it all, yet all anyone wants to talk about is coverage. I can tell you if that $2k hospital visit just to go to the ER for a quick fix was to drop to $200 there wouldn't be such a coverage problem, but insurance companies want to make money too so they have to charge you out the ass because they are getting charged out the ass because the hospital is getting charged out the ass because the hospital suppliers are getting screwed. Add into the mix the tremendous healthcare illiteracy and defensive medicine practices already mentioned, and you have a shit show. But no, lets let the American taxpayer pick up the bill. This is a quagmire that will take years and serious crises to fix

 

[Lefty375]

Who is ready to talk about healthcare?

Im particularly interested in hearing people defend the GOP's attempts at repealing the ACA, via reducing coverage and increasing costs for the poorest and oldest among us.

I'd also be interested to hear someone talk about how this bill will at all mesh with POTUS's promises that everyone would still be covered, those on Medicaid wouldn't be affected, and all the other straight up bullshit he promised that he is clearly going back on.

Let's hear it people. Let's hear how this will better for the average Trump voter, or really average American.

Bonus points if you can defend some of the absolutely bullshit minutiae, like lottery winners taking up six pages...

I always seem to agree with your point of view. We might differ on this topic, but it's way too broad right now. A good start would be a topic like, "is healthcare a right?".

 

[TLDR20]

I could not agree with Blizzard more. Coverage is a big deal, but considering the problem as a whole, it's like putting a band-aid on the plague. What really needs to be attacked is healthcare costs. Why in the living hell does a saline solution aka saltwater cost so damn much?

Consider pharmaceutical companies. Yea we've all heard about recouping the R&D costs, etc, but has anyone considered that American pharmaceutical companies basically supply most of the world? Well when medicines are kept low cost by price controls in so many countries (most importantly Europe and Canada) but the US, it's the American consumer that bears the burden.

Why do doctors get paid so much? Well, they earned it. They took on $100k+ of debt to learn to take care of your ass and then had to go through residency. But why does med school cost so much in the first place?

There are so so so many factors that go into healthcare costs that I don't know if anyone could know it all, yet all anyone wants to talk about is coverage. I can tell you if that $2k hospital visit just to go to the ER for a quick fix was to drop to $200 there wouldn't be such a coverage problem, but insurance companies want to make money too so they have to charge you out the ass because they are getting charged out the ass because the hospital is getting charged out the ass because the hospital suppliers are getting screwed. Add into the mix the tremendous healthcare illiteracy and defensive medicine practices already mentioned, and you have a shit show. But no, lets let the American taxpayer pick up the bill. This is a quagmire that will take years and serious crises to fix

You are ignoring a key component in your post. If everyone was covered the hospitals wouldn't have to build in loss to their costs. They wouldn't have to plan to have someone only pay 212 dollars or a 2500 dollar bill. That cost is passed on to the insured currently.

People need to look past the "it's an entitlement" mentality. As our population continues to grey, there will be an ever increasing part of our GDP going to health costs. This is a fact. There are ways to better lower costs. One is through universal coverage. Another would be to allow the government to negotiate or regulate costs. Europe does it, why the fuck don't we? You know who doesn't pay an astronomical amount for medical supplies and medicine? Other parts of the government. The military and VA can and do negotiate the costs for supplies and medications and it is cheaper.

Sometimes there is a place for the power of a government to regulate. IMO this is one of those things. Otherwise you have a hamstrung Medicare/Medicaid system that is forced to pay the average cost +7percent. If you are a business wouldn't you then just charge everyone more so the average price goes up? We would all love a world in which businesses were malevolent and acted in our best interest. But that is certainly not the case, with a few exceptions in the pharmacology world.

I always seem to agree with your point of view. We might differ on this topic, but it's way too broad right now. A good start would be a topic like, "is healthcare a right?".

I don't know the answer to that. I think that it is more nuanced. Healthcare is treated as a right in the US if you injured or in an accident and go to the ED, but that is more related to the professional codes of physicians than anything else.

It isn't guarnteed anywhere in the constitution, but then again they literally could not have foreseen a future filled with what we have today, they were still bloodletting...

My answer is I don't know. My opinion though is health care is a right.

 

[Grunt]

My answer is I don't know. My opinion though is health care is a right.

As to whether or not it's a right...I do not know. But, it is certainly the "right and decent" thing to provide. Costs are out the roof and that's what needs to be addressed. We pay truckloads of money to insurance companies and then they pick and choose what they want to pay and complain about doing it the entire time. IMO, that's what needs to be addressed pronto quicko.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I think basic health care should be a right. But yet I take issue with people who intentionally do stupid things that ruin their personal health and then demand to be cared for. Smoking, alcoholism, drugs, obesity, etc.

 

[TLDR20]

I think basic health care should be a right. But yet I take issue with people who intentionally do stupid things that ruin their personal health and then demand to be cared for. Smoking, alcoholism, drugs, obesity, etc.

I agree with you to an extent. Fuck man you have turned liberal!

My only caveat is some things are addictive as fuck. Opioid addictions aren't always a personal choice. You could take narcs the way they are prescribed and end up with an addiction to opioids...

 

[Grunt]

Opioid addictions aren't always a personal choice. You could take narcs the way they are prescribed and end up with an addiction to opioids...

Opioids could have a thread or two of their own. They are their own special kind of hell for many.