Healthcare!

I agree with you to an extent. Fuck man you have turned liberal!;-)

My only caveat is some things are addictive as fuck. Opioid addictions aren't always a personal choice. You could take narcs the way they are prescribed and end up with an addiction to opioids...

Yeah, I look at a lot of the healthcare as a 'right' stuff more in a public policy context - what policies give the best returns on investment or prevent the most loss to public resources. Although I might not want to pay for a drug addict, smoker, or other citizen making bad personal choices if the alternative is $50,000 of public money for treatment or $500,000 for jail/ER costs/law enforcement expenses I feel like there is a moral argument on public grounds. I feel very similarly about a lot of criminal justice reforms - it's less to me about sympathy for the individuals and more about how to best manage costs to the public - both direct and indirect.
 
I agree with you to an extent. Fuck man you have turned liberal!;-)

My only caveat is some things are addictive as fuck. Opioid addictions aren't always a personal choice. You could take narcs the way they are prescribed and end up with an addiction to opioids...

I have a few liberal leaning opinions, but generally lean to the conservative/constitutional side of things. As I said, I think basic health care should be a right and wouldn't be apposed to constitutional amendment to ensure citizens basic medical needs are met.

That said my conservative belief is that people who make poor life choices, should face the consequences of their choice. If you smoke cigarettes for 30 years and destroy your lungs. I think that's on you to fix, not the government or the tax payers.

Drugs and alcohol addiction sucks and I'm all for community rehabs and assisting people who want help. But unfortunately, many don't want help and don't care about their health enough to stop, in those cases it's on them.

I like personal responsibility and accountability. Yes some things are out of your control and we need to have compassion. But without accountability, people turn into sucking the system for all its worth shit heads.
 
I agree with you to an extent. Fuck man you have turned liberal!;-)

My only caveat is some things are addictive as fuck. Opioid addictions aren't always a personal choice. You could take narcs the way they are prescribed and end up with an addiction to opioids...

I'd actually accuse you both of leaning libertarian on that aspect. }:-) Do what you will, just don't make me pay for it, i.e. overeat and binge drink, etc.
 
Out of curiosity - what are the main reasons for opposition to universal healthcare in the US?

Here in Australia we have universal, and also the option of purchasing our own private health coverage and getting a rebate for it on our tax returns to help cover the premiums. I can't speak for other Commonwealth nations but it has worked here just fine.
 
I don't know about the tax side but I suspect much is the same here.

Am happy to provide an opinion on our system if anyone wants a comparison. I won't make judgements on which is better.
 
Out of curiosity - what are the main reasons for opposition to universal healthcare in the US?

Here in Australia we have universal, and also the option of purchasing our own private health coverage and getting a rebate for it on our tax returns to help cover the premiums. I can't speak for other Commonwealth nations but it has worked here just fine.

It's a cultural thing. The country was founded because of taxation without representation; the whole idea of taxes--specifically non-Constitutionally mandated use--is always contentious. Just like gun ownership.

No one denies that everyone should be able to access and pay for healthcare. Everyone agrees. But that is where the road diverges, because then the argument becomes "who is paying for it?"
 
Out of curiosity - what are the main reasons for opposition to universal healthcare in the US?

Here in Australia we have universal, and also the option of purchasing our own private health coverage and getting a rebate for it on our tax returns to help cover the premiums. I can't speak for other Commonwealth nations but it has worked here just fine.

Well the issue with universal healthcare even in first world countries is that the money runs out. Look at Spain. They have universal healthcare but their government can't afford it. It becomes an issue of how much can you tax to actually cover the costs and how much are people actually willing to pay in taxes. Additionally, a lot of developed countries with universal coverage still have major coverage gaps in rural areas (Russia and Mexico are prime examples, although them being developed nations is arguable), and the effective insured rate is equal to or less of that of the US. Private insurance purchased in addition to public is typically very expensive and the top 10% or so of a nation can actually afford it. Everyone else is plagued with long wait times or short, very rushed visits.

Taiwan's system has no gatekeeper system (designed to keep people who don't actually need healthcare from getting it and wasting money) and as a result their offices are plagued with too many people, not enough doctors, and individuals can see specialists without a referral and bounce around between multiple doctor's until they get the opinion they want. On an unrelated note, Taiwan has some of the best healthcare management systems in the world. All of your information (medical history, prescriptions, etc.) is loaded onto a smart card that stores information. In order to see a doctor, you simply swipe your health card (which if I'm not mistaken is your ID card) and all of your medical history comes up and your billing information is already stored so the facility can bill the government for it.

In all honesty, universal coverage sounds like a great idea and it's a noble cause, but it has its own problems. My main problem with Obamacare is that yes, millions more Americans are insured, but their plans are often low premium, high deductible, meaning for an average year, they're still paying all of their medical costs out of pocket unless something catastrophic happens, but even then most of these plans cover a low percentage (50%-70%) and you're still plagued with massive debt following a catastrophic event.

In case anyone is wondering about my credentials, I have a bachelors in Economics and did my senior capstone in Health Economics.

It's a cultural thing. The country was founded because of taxation without representation; the whole idea of taxes--specifically non-Constitutionally mandated use--is always contentious. Just like gun ownership.

No one denies that everyone should be able to access and pay for healthcare. Everyone agrees. But that is where the road diverges, because then the argument becomes "who is paying for it?"

At the end of the day, the taxpayers pay for it. Any public hospital, by law, is required to take any and all patients who walk through the door, regardless of their ability to pay. This is called "uncompensated care". At the end of the fiscal year, the government received bills from hospitals for uncompensated care and reimburses the hospitals for most of that amount. If they didn't, public hospitals wouldn't comply with the law. So effectively, everyone in the US can receive healthcare, but it ultimately gets paid for by the taxpayers anyways. Obamacare was designed to solved the "free rider" problem, similar to Romney's law in Massachusetts, but in order to do that, everyone had to have coverage. In order to do that, the government had to subsidize it. In order to do that, the government had to raise taxes, reduce uncompensated care payments, reduce payments for readmissions for Medicare due to hospital related causes, among a host of other things.

@TLDR20 I haven't read too much of this thread, but I can tell you're opposed to repealing and replacing Obamacare. But if you look at many Republican plans (specifically Hatch/Upton/Burr, I believe) they actually keep a lot of Obamacare regulations. The main difference is the individual mandate and how it's being paid for. Any fiscal conservative worth a shit is smart enough to realize that reducing or eliminating Medicare payments to hospitals for second and third visits when the patient contracted an illness from that same hospital is a good thing, or that using existing technology that still works for government sponsored healthcare instead of buying the latest greatest medical tech is a good thing, or that closing the Medicare prescription donut hole is a good thing. But conservatives and liberals disagree on the major theme that underlies most of our debate today as our budget outweighs our tax revenue, which is how (and ultimately who) is going to pay for it.

I do believe in the free market and letting competition drive down costs. As of right now, each state has their own unique medical insurance regulations for minimum coverage, conditions covered, etc. That's the beauty of our country, where individual states can suit the needs and wants of their citizens. But the downfall is that insurance cannot cross state lines. For an insurance company to operate in all fifty states, they have essentially fifty different subsidiaries. This means 50 times the overhead, which gets passed on to consumers. Also, breaking it up into fifty different pieces virtually eliminates an economies of scale that could be realized from having major insurance companies operate nationally. Obviously what we don't want is the industry to become more monopolized than it already is, but I believe we could regulate it responsibly like we do utility companies and keep a few major players in the game (and keep a watchful, non-intrusive eye on them) in order to lower costs.
 
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At the end of the day, the taxpayers pay for it. Any public hospital, by law, is required to take any and all patients who walk through the door, regardless of their ability to pay. This is called "uncompensated care". At the end of the fiscal year, the government received bills from hospitals for uncompensated care and reimburses the hospitals for most of that amount. If they didn't, public hospitals wouldn't comply with the law. So effectively, everyone in the US can receive healthcare, but it ultimately gets paid for by the taxpayers anyways. Obamacare was designed to solved the "free rider" problem, similar to Romney's law in Massachusetts, but in order to do that, everyone had to have coverage. In order to do that, the government had to subsidize it. In order to do that, the government had to raise taxes, reduce uncompensated care payments, reduce payments for readmissions for Medicare due to hospital related causes, among a host of other things.

Well, yes, and no. The misconception is that anyone can walk into an ED regardless of being able to pay and get care. That is not true. EMTALA is very specific. The problem is, the hospital and the providers don't want the liability for doing a medical screening exam and sending them on their merry way if the doc thinks the patient doesn't need the ED, only to be burned by the zebra in the herd of horses. Hence, a $150 pregnancy test that cost $1 at the Dollar Store. Outside the ED, even in public hospitals, they can turn away patients because of capped beds, census, or if they do not provide whatever service the patient needs. But you are right in that public hospitals must received patients regardless of their ability/inability to pay.
 
Out of curiosity - what are the main reasons for opposition to universal healthcare in the US?

Here in Australia we have universal, and also the option of purchasing our own private health coverage and getting a rebate for it on our tax returns to help cover the premiums. I can't speak for other Commonwealth nations but it has worked here just fine.

Your country has a population of 23.13 million people and started universal health care a while ago, in the 80's I think......we have population of 316.5 million people and are trying to jump into a universal health care system from an established system....there's going to be some bumps in the road.

I'm all for it, but our government has a great way of screwing up a good idea. The closest thing we have to a universal health care type system is the VA (roughly), and as a whole, its a mess....IMHO.
 
Thank you all for the responses.

Looking back at my post, it may have come across as a 'our way is better than your way', but I did not mean it that way. What works for one does not always work for another.

Very complex topic and I look forward to learning more about it and the different viewpoints here.
 
Thank you all for the responses.

Looking back at my post, it may have come across as a 'our way is better than your way', but I did not mean it that way. What works for one does not always work for another.

Very complex topic and I look forward to learning more about it and the different viewpoints here.

No worries...I have been fortunate to have spent time in your country, I truly love it. You guys have done some great things socially, I really like your student loan programs too.

We are just late to the game, and having difficulties....
 
Thank you all for the responses.

Looking back at my post, it may have come across as a 'our way is better than your way', but I did not mean it that way. What works for one does not always work for another.

Very complex topic and I look forward to learning more about it and the different viewpoints here.

Oh no, I didn't take it like that at all. It's understandable that a lot of people from other countries look at issues in the US (not just healthcare) and say "It's working fine here, why don't they do the same thing?"
 
Who is ready to talk about healthcare?

It is my opinion that if the ACA is not repealed and replaced the program could go defunct as early as Q1 2018. As more providers back out of the program, some states will be left with zero providers. The actuaries that are the brightest are telling their companies to get the hell out of this (UNH first more now) due to the losses they are modelling and realizing.

Some data: Sharp Decline in Competition Across ACA Exchanges, Experts Predict
With so many insurers dropping out of several ACA exchanges due to substantial financial losses, CMS has taken some steps to stabilize the markets such a request for information on patient-steering concerns. More than half (55%) of rating regions may have two or fewer carriers in 2017, Avelere's analysis found. The projections were made by calculating next year's competition levels by comparing current carriers' 2016 participation to the reduced levels some have announced for 2017, including Aetna, Humana, UnitedHealth, and some co-ops. In contrast to the 36% of rating regions predicted to have only one or fewer companies offering plans next year, Avalere found that in 2016, only 4% of rating regions had one or fewer. The firm concluded that seven states (AK, AL, KS, NC, OK, SC, WY) will have just one carrier per rating region in each rating region in the state in 2017.

So the impact of decreased competition has been massive premiums and deductible rate hikes. This flows through to the state level:
Tennessee insurance commissioner: Obamacare exchange 'very near collapse'
ObamaCare’s Meltdown Has Arrived

With the majority of Americans living paycheck to paycheck and not having anything in savings, they are unable to pay the high deductible's and are more likely to go without insurance until something happens to them. Then sign up and get the treatment they need.

By adding hi risk pools back in which takes care of the 3:1 underwriting requirement and coupling with HSA accounts and no more "defined-benefit" plans, there will probably be more people insured at a lower cost for what they need insurance for. I think the repeal replace will actually benefit the individual because I do not believe ACA is sustainable in the current form.
 
No worries...I have been fortunate to have spent time in your country, I truly love it. You guys have done some great things socially, I really like your student loan programs too.

We are just late to the game, and having difficulties....

A social program that I am totally on board with, and I'm surprised not many states do this (and my home state, Georgia, of all places does) is state funded tuition. In GA we have the HOPE Scholarship. It's funded through the GA Lottery and the state of GA will pay 90% of your tuition at any public college (I don't think they cover private colleges) as long as you maintain a 3.0 GPA. I took full advantage of this and graduated with $3k in student loan debt.
 
No worries...I have been fortunate to have spent time in your country, I truly love it. You guys have done some great things socially, I really like your student loan programs too.

We are just late to the game, and having difficulties....

I don't think the government should be in the business of bankrolling college, but that's another thread.

Oh no, I didn't take it like that at all. It's understandable that a lot of people from other countries look at issues in the US (not just healthcare) and say "It's working fine here, why don't they do the same thing?"

For the same reason people in the US look at other counties and ask the same thing. I think it's easy--and dangerous--to play that game, but that gets us in trouble (well, democracy works here, why can't we make it work in whatever country).

I do think, however, there is good reason to have dialogue on what other countries do/don't do, why things work/don't work, but you (not 'you' you) need to have the discussion with the history and culture in context.
 
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Another issue with the individual mandate is that tax penalties come out of the yearly tax refund. If you state you do not have insurance on your taxes, they simply take the penalty out of your taxes. If you're a high income individual, then you have to pay. Millions of low income Americans that receive tax credits for having children and EITC and receive thousands back in a refund every year, and it's often viewed as no money "out of pocket" for the penalty since it's coming from money they haven't yet received and didn't necessarily work for (I made this much this paycheck and now I have to pay out of pocket for this penalty).
 
Another issue with the individual mandate is that tax penalties come out of the yearly tax refund. If you state you do not have insurance on your taxes, they simply take the penalty out of your taxes. If you're a high income individual, then you have to pay. Millions of low income Americans that receive tax credits for having children and EITC and receive thousands back in a refund every year, and it's often viewed as no money "out of pocket" for the penalty since it's coming from money they haven't yet received and didn't necessarily work for (I made this much this paycheck and now I have to pay out of pocket for this penalty).

Do you actually think that people are checking the box that says they are uninsured? Given how tight the elections are across the board is there really going to be a rush to send the IRS to penalize the poorest who are trying to get around paying an extra tax? Here is a pretty good scenario I am stealing:

An independent contractor, say a bricklayer living on $40,000 a year, is unlikely capable of covering a $2250 annual Deductible for his “Silver” plan, to say nothing of his $6600 out-of-pocket maximum in 2017, should he be injured, should he need to utilize his health insurance, regardless of whether he qualifies for federal subsidies for his $425 monthly premiums.

So what’s the end game?

He’s going to go without health insurance.

He’s going to pay the $695 tax under the ACA (which may be as high as $1000 should he appropriately pay the 2.5% of his AGI per the ACA provisions)…. We’ll at least he doesn’t have a wife and two kids, or his penalty would be $2085, calculated at $695 per adult and $347.50 per child!

He’ll sign up for an ACA plan only if (or when) he gets hurt.

The question is, will he check that box on his tax form come April, confirming that he is uninsured?

If not, will the IRS come calling to confirm that he’s covered by an ACA-compliant plan?

And if they do, will he be charged that tax in an audit of his 2017 federal tax return?

And if he happens to avoid that audit in ‘17, what about in ’18, when another round of Insurers likely exit the ACA program, and he finds himself living in a county where there are no ACA-Compliant offerings to be had?

Will this administration seriously consider taxing its least affluent citizens for failing to purchase a product that they have no means of affording, and on a more practical level, a product that they may have no access to in the first place?
 
Keep in mind I'm not defending the ACA, but I do think it needs to be judged fairly.

The poorest of the poor, if they fall under the income threshold (which I believe is 140% of the FPL, which is the maximum to which you qualify for a 100% subsidy) are exempt from the penalty. I'm not sure if there was a time restriction on that (I know they pushed all of these regulations through in phases, so they may introduce a penalty later on). So the IRS will not tax the least affluent citizens, but more than likely it will hit the middle class hard, as with your example at the top.

Also, every individual I've talked to who hasn't checked the box (this is a handful of people, so there may be some sampling error) has still gotten letters from the IRS stating they know that the individual was not insured and they assessed the tax penalty on them. The big problem with spotty reporting and accountability I've seen and heard of is people who are offered insurance by their employer, who by definition of the law are forced to take that insurance and cannot sign up for the exchanges, are able to get away with lying on the exchanges by saying their employer does not offer them coverage so they can sign up for a plan there.

In addition, what you have described is known as the free rider problem. It's harder to fix now because insurers cannot deny coverage due to pre-existing conditions (i.e. your example of getting injured and then getting insurance), but I believe insurers still have the right to install a waiting period on coverage so you can't essentially buy coverage today and use it today because you got injured yesterday. I may be wrong but I'm fairly certain they still maintain that right.
 
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They do maintain the right, you are correct as far as I know. I know you are not defending, and I should preface with my stance is only due to my thoughts that it is not sustainable in its current form.

I will be very interested to see if there is a push to penalize those who got a letter because that to me sounds like something big gov't would be dumb enough to do, and a quick way to lose a lot of votes. I say that because I think that is a huge issue that is coming up. I will steal a snippet from a PM who I work with who wrote on this:

There are 25 incumbent Democrats seeking reelection (out of 33 contested seats) in 2018, all of whom conceptually cast the “deciding vote” in the 2010 passage of the Affordable Care Act. Should Senate Majority Leader McConnell and the Republicans fail to secure the eight Democratic votes necessary to REPLACE the ACA, Trump and the Republicans may simply revert and postpone the repeal of the tax and coverage provisions of the ACA, thereby allowing the ACA to effectively remain in place until 2018. In this scenario, per previous observations, the economics of the ACA exchange offerings would presumably continue to unravel. At this point, the Republicans may then look to run in 2018 against the Democrats as obstructionists and “owners” of the problem once again (intending to secure the requisite 60 votes necessary to move forward with their plans “at the ballot box” rather than “across the aisle”).

My personal views are that we should help take care of everyone we can and that health coverage should be something every American has access to, I do not know who will front the bill nor have I worked out who should. I keep struggling with that in my head of what I think is morally right and what is realistically feasible.
 
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