Almost forgot. 6 Aug 1945.
Enola gay flown by volunteers conducted the first nuclear strike in warfare.
Enola gay flown by volunteers conducted the first nuclear strike in warfare.
Hiroshima
- Thread starter DA SWO
- Start date
One of the worst events in history. I wish those damn things had never been invented. However if they hadn't, the World would most likely be a different place than it is today. Unfortunately it demonstrated the devastation of that technology, and created a basis for why we there is such a large concern over Nuclear Technology today. It was a horrible necessity in my opinion.
Red Ryder
Unverified
I think the history books often overlook or down play the atrocities commited by the Japanese during the war and almost make them seem like the victim. Lets not forget events like Bataan, and what they did in China. They are lucky we didnt turn the whole island to glass.
They also overlook 21st Bomber Command's immolation of various Japanese cities. People scream bloody murder over the nukes, but the firebombing killed more than the two cities put together, a lot more. Hastings' Retribution does a very good job of discussing the events and decisions leading up to the use of the bombs on Japan. Given what everyone thought at the time, I think it was the right thing to do. There was plenty of hand-wringing over the decision at that time, and some who opposed it, but modern critics forget to look at The Decision from a 1945/ 6+ years of world war perspective.
HOLLiS
Verified Military
When we look at the deaths by war in the first half of the 20th century and compare it to the deaths caused by war in the second half of the 20th century, the contribution of the "bomb" becomes apparent. As horrible as the thought of it's destructive powers, it actually aided in preserving life.
As I kid I remember listening to men who would have been on the invasion fleet for the attack on mainland Japan. The bomb to them was a god-send. Also the people than I knew who were from Japan, also see it that way too. The lost of life from the invasion of Japan could have easily run into the multimillion number of deaths.
As I kid I remember listening to men who would have been on the invasion fleet for the attack on mainland Japan. The bomb to them was a god-send. Also the people than I knew who were from Japan, also see it that way too. The lost of life from the invasion of Japan could have easily run into the multimillion number of deaths.
Red Flag 1
Verified Military
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Much was learned from the first use of an atomic weapon, it took two to teach everyone.
RF 1
RF 1
My uncle was a Marine, and Japan would have been his third landing, he had 1 Purple Heart, and I can't imagine him not getting a second one.
My other Uncle was a Navy Aviator who was shot down/rescued once, again.
Another Uncle was a Sailor.
I am glad they did not have to partake in an invasion of Japan.
I feel no remorse for those who died in the Nuclear attacks or firebombings, a person only needs to read about the Rape of Nanjing aka (Nanking) to understand how barbaric the Japanese Culture is, and to understand why total devastation was required.
My other Uncle was a Navy Aviator who was shot down/rescued once, again.
Another Uncle was a Sailor.
I am glad they did not have to partake in an invasion of Japan.
I feel no remorse for those who died in the Nuclear attacks or firebombings, a person only needs to read about the Rape of Nanjing aka (Nanking) to understand how barbaric the Japanese Culture is, and to understand why total devastation was required.
Is or was?
Former,
Was (He's dead)
Was (He's dead).
BTW-Happy Nagasaki Day to everyone.
Bomb #2 finally convinced the Emperor to stop fighting and save his people.
The Military was willing to sacrifice the entire Japanese Race thinking they could kill enough people to somehow come out victorious.
I think we've crossed wires, I'm talking about your Japanese culture comment. I wasn't too clear on that.
Japanese culture can be incredibly racist and xenophobic. I wouldn't want to be a Korean living in Japan, that's for sure...
I understand that but it doesn't explain how they could be as they were in China/Korea today.
RetPara
SOF Support
In the decades leading up to the Japanese invasion of China the religious deviation of Shintoism - or a different sect called Bushido ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido ) took root in the Army which eventually took control of the government. While the Emperor was still worshiped as a living God, the Way of The Warrior was the principal path. Japan had never fully come out of its self imposed isolationist polices up through the 19th Century. While they imitated a great deal (and still do) of western culture and fashion many of the ancient traditions carried through still to this day. Under Bushido, as was with Nazism, the manifest destiny of a superior race was obvious to the Japanese upper class and military leadership. This lead to the enslavement of Korea and absolutely brutal invasion of China. When the US cut off oil and scrap metal imports to Japan, economically their backs were against the wall. They were forced into the military expansion into the Asian Sphere of Co-Prosperity before they were really ready.
So you take a culture that has not really assimilated western more's and values, is imbued with a cultural inferiority complex and a religious code of being a superior race... Then the cultural individual strictures of obedience, extreme formality, along with a group identity as opposed to any kind of individual one. You have a recipe for the Rape of Nanking and the destruction of life at the wholesale level though the Pacific. Because of a group identity as opposed to an individual one; the value of life in the East is much lower than in the West.
The decision to drop nuclear weapons were ones that haunted those who were part of the process the rest of their lives. In truth, from researching the question for over forty years now... It was the only rational decision that could be made. The Japanese war plans for the defense of the home islands were declassified, translated, and published some years ago. These plans included every man, woman, and child in Japan. It would start at the waters edge and end only in death for the invader or the defender. In depth, interconnected fields of fire of everything from spears on up was planned. Suicide weapons were planned for on the sea, in the air, and ground. Fighting would of been going on quite easily into 1950. Japan would of been a bombed out series of island with its infrastructure destroyed with only a token population left. Allied casualties would of been almost unbelievable. Tarawa, Okinawa, and Iwo Jima would of been the way to describe the battle for Japan. The US generation that fought in WWII took a serious hit in the casualties that had taken place already. The invasion of Japan would been our equivalent of what WWI did to the gene pool of France and England. The very nature of the American people would of been changed forever.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the most inhumane, humane act in the history of the world. When I was much younger I spent a great deal of time in Hiroshima. Peace Park which was the island connecting to the bridge that was the aiming has been a mass grave for over 100,000 bodies or what could be found. Countless others were vaporized or consumed by the fire storm. What caused such a incredible level of destruction is the fact that Hiroshima sits in a alluvial plain/delta. The blast wave reflected off the surrounding hill sides 2-3 times. Along with the blast, the heat was also reflected into this churning mass of debris which much of which was wood. Most of Hiroshima at the time was wood frame post and beam construction with with masonry or concrete construction. The bomb created it's own fire storm. The remains of the bombing can still be seen today on the still standing bridge and A Bomb dome near ground zero. Hiroshima also has a remarkable research hospital for radiation illnesses. Birth defects one or two generations removed from the bombing were starting to be seen. Not unlike what is seen in Iraq in the area where Nerve Agent and Mustard Gas was used against the Kurds in the 1980's.
It could of been worse. Hiroshima was a secondary target. The primary was Kyoto, home to hundreds of ancient Japanese shrines. The destruction of those would of been tragic and actually been counter productive.
The damage and death rate at Nagasaki were not near like those in Hiroshima. Nagasaki, also a major port city, is not on a plain but on rolling hills which shielded many buildings and much of the population.
There was one man who was in Hiroshima and Nagasaki when both were bombed. I don't know if it was good luck he survived or not.
If we had not bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki I don't believe we could of prospered as we did in the 50's and 60's. It was the only choice.
Just a few idle thoughts over lunch.
So you take a culture that has not really assimilated western more's and values, is imbued with a cultural inferiority complex and a religious code of being a superior race... Then the cultural individual strictures of obedience, extreme formality, along with a group identity as opposed to any kind of individual one. You have a recipe for the Rape of Nanking and the destruction of life at the wholesale level though the Pacific. Because of a group identity as opposed to an individual one; the value of life in the East is much lower than in the West.
The decision to drop nuclear weapons were ones that haunted those who were part of the process the rest of their lives. In truth, from researching the question for over forty years now... It was the only rational decision that could be made. The Japanese war plans for the defense of the home islands were declassified, translated, and published some years ago. These plans included every man, woman, and child in Japan. It would start at the waters edge and end only in death for the invader or the defender. In depth, interconnected fields of fire of everything from spears on up was planned. Suicide weapons were planned for on the sea, in the air, and ground. Fighting would of been going on quite easily into 1950. Japan would of been a bombed out series of island with its infrastructure destroyed with only a token population left. Allied casualties would of been almost unbelievable. Tarawa, Okinawa, and Iwo Jima would of been the way to describe the battle for Japan. The US generation that fought in WWII took a serious hit in the casualties that had taken place already. The invasion of Japan would been our equivalent of what WWI did to the gene pool of France and England. The very nature of the American people would of been changed forever.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the most inhumane, humane act in the history of the world. When I was much younger I spent a great deal of time in Hiroshima. Peace Park which was the island connecting to the bridge that was the aiming has been a mass grave for over 100,000 bodies or what could be found. Countless others were vaporized or consumed by the fire storm. What caused such a incredible level of destruction is the fact that Hiroshima sits in a alluvial plain/delta. The blast wave reflected off the surrounding hill sides 2-3 times. Along with the blast, the heat was also reflected into this churning mass of debris which much of which was wood. Most of Hiroshima at the time was wood frame post and beam construction with with masonry or concrete construction. The bomb created it's own fire storm. The remains of the bombing can still be seen today on the still standing bridge and A Bomb dome near ground zero. Hiroshima also has a remarkable research hospital for radiation illnesses. Birth defects one or two generations removed from the bombing were starting to be seen. Not unlike what is seen in Iraq in the area where Nerve Agent and Mustard Gas was used against the Kurds in the 1980's.
It could of been worse. Hiroshima was a secondary target. The primary was Kyoto, home to hundreds of ancient Japanese shrines. The destruction of those would of been tragic and actually been counter productive.
The damage and death rate at Nagasaki were not near like those in Hiroshima. Nagasaki, also a major port city, is not on a plain but on rolling hills which shielded many buildings and much of the population.
There was one man who was in Hiroshima and Nagasaki when both were bombed. I don't know if it was good luck he survived or not.
If we had not bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki I don't believe we could of prospered as we did in the 50's and 60's. It was the only choice.
Just a few idle thoughts over lunch.
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2006
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There needs to be new "Agree in part" and "Disagree in part" buttons...
Red Ryder
Unverified
Would you like to discuss why you disagree?
The firebombing of Dresden killed a hell of a lot of people, too. If the US would have lost the war, I'm pretty confident there would have been some war crimes trials over it. That and the firebombing of various Japanese cities, including Tokyo, are reported to have killed more people than one or both of the nukes. Yet you don't often hear about the firebombings. And they definitely weren't enough to end the war.
WWII was pretty much the last time that Western powers saw civilian populations as legitimate military targets during a time of war. It is also the last time that we won a convincing military victory outside of the Western hemisphere. I wonder if the two are related.
