Immigration Reform

Diamondback 2/2

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I'm a big fan of the concept of big local/state government and small federal government. States and cities should run their own house as they see fit, funding and outside influence shouldn't happen. The greatest thing about it, is that when shit is fucked up, you can change it and it actually matters, when big issues come up, you can vote on the issue, and when corrupt assholes fuck people over, it's easier to see and deal with.
 

0699

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I was basically agreeing with you.

I just see cities being able to in some cases wield much more power than states. In many states the major cities population is much higher than the rest of the population, and as the cities go so do the states.
Ahh, okay.

The effect of population centers is manifesting itself around the nation, not just in the traditional locations of California and the north east (NY, MA, etc). Colorado is dragged around by Denver, western Washington state is bullied by the Puget Sound region, and Virginians are abused by the liberals in NoVa and the Tidewater. Geographically, Virginia is mostly a conservative state, but because so many people live in NoVa and the Tidewater, they can drive a lot of issues and elections. Our carpetbagger governor is a great example. :thumbsdown:
 

TLDR20

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Ahh, okay.

The effect of population centers is manifesting itself around the nation, not just in the traditional locations of California and the north east (NY, MA, etc). Colorado is dragged around by Denver, western Washington state is bullied by the Puget Sound region, and Virginians are abused by the liberals in NoVa and the Tidewater. Geographically, Virginia is mostly a conservative state, but because so many people live in NoVa and the Tidewater, they can drive a lot of issues and elections. Our carpetbagger governor is a great example. :thumbsdown:

Yeah. That is what I was saying. I think the federal government has the ability to even some of that out, in both directions.
 

Dienekes

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What if the states had some form of electoral college based on state legislature representation similar to the national one? That would prevent major cities from overriding the majority of the state without abdicating too much power to the rural counties that have much lower population. I think gubernatorial elections work pretty well as they are, however, I'm not well versed in state politics anyway.

It would be extremely interesting to see how a true republic of states would function. What would encourage economies and labor markets other than taxes (personal preferences notwithstanding)? Competing for population wrt who has the most liberal personal liberty laws aka concealed carry type stuff, etc? It would make for a truly interesting political situation that I think would ultimately benefit the country greatly
 

Diamondback 2/2

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The biggest problem I see is people want to tell others how to live. What works in California, doesn't work in Texas. What works in North Texas doesn'twork in South Texas, etc.

There is a place in Big Bend called Terlingua (ghost town) that people moved back into. It's pretty much with out law enforcement except for the occasional deputy or trooper. But they pretty much do what they want, and have somewhat developed their own system to deal with things. No that would never work in a place like San Antonio, but it work for the people out in Terlingua. I don't like Austin telling people what to do or how we should think. I sure as hell don't like Washington DC telling me how to live or think. Hell I fucking hate home owners association. But I do understand the purpose and need for them. But it's when people are stupid and stop being concerned with property values and start fucking with people that shit gets fucked up.

I grew up in Texas, working and living with Mexican nationals. My wife's family is from Mexico, I spent my childhood running around in Mexico. Never needed a passport, just a few bucks and my ID. I fucking hate how things have gotten fucked up now, and if wasn't for the stupid drug laws aND fucking terrorist, I would be for open borders with Mexico and Canada. But at this point in time we can't have that. I just wish there was away to put some of that responsibility back to the local governments that have to interact cross border.

The people that scream about Mexicans taking jobs are full of shit. They do the work 99% of America won't do. They get paid shit, and they live here in poverty, normally send money home to support their impoverished family. Make it easier for them to do that legally and quit bitchin about it. If they break laws punish them, like anyone else. Send them packing, etc. But for fuck sake, stop with the crybaby bullshit about Mexicans. I don't know if it's truly racism, or ignorance of the people, fear of what you don't know, or just people bitchin to bitch. But whatever it is, people need to stop and think before running their opinionated mouths about shit they have no true understanding of or any business discussing.

I hate the wall idea, I hate the mass deportation ideas, I hate the idea of families being torn apart over stupidity coming out of Washington DC. Yes we need border security right now, yes we need to deport the criminals and yes we need vetting and need to know who is here and why. But it ain't that damn hard, and we need to use a little common sense and less "fuck it burn it down" rhetoric.

My $.02
 

Marauder06

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The people that scream about Mexicans taking jobs are full of shit. They do the work 99% of America won't do. They get paid shit, and they live here in poverty, normally send money home to support their impoverished family. Make it easier for them to do that legally and quit bitchin about it. If they break laws punish them, like anyone else. Send them packing, etc. But for fuck sake, stop with the crybaby bullshit about Mexicans. I don't know if it's truly racism, or ignorance of the people, fear of what you don't know, or just people bitchin to bitch. But whatever it is, people need to stop and think before running their opinionated mouths about shit they have no true understanding of or any business discussing.

I hate the wall idea, I hate the mass deportation ideas, I hate the idea of families being torn apart over stupidity coming out of Washington DC. Yes we need border security right now, yes we need to deport the criminals and yes we need vetting and need to know who is here and why. But it ain't that damn hard, and we need to use a little common sense and less "fuck it burn it down" rhetoric.

My $.02

The fact that there are jobs "99% of America won't do" while there are so many on welfare is part of the problem. If you don't have a job, there shouldn't be many (any?) legit jobs that you "won't do." But we've made welfare too comfortable; you can get most of the trappings of the lower middle class through government handouts, so where's the incentive to do better? Additionally, a cheap labor force depresses wages and discourages innovation. Why make tech improvements if you're guaranteed a stream of cheap and expendable labor?

The "jobs Americans won't do" argument is only useful if immigrants would do those jobs for a while and then go home. They don't. They stay here, and I don't blame them. But any children they have here are citizens, and being Americans, they WON'T do "the jobs Americans won't do." So now you have to bring in even more immigrants to do more jobs for an ever-expanding US population. Those children aren't grateful to be in the US, they look around and say "why don't *I* have that?" just like anyone else would. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law by illegally immigrating to the US. That alone is a good enough reason to deport them. And it is "that damn hard" to come up with something that works, which is one of the reasons there hasn't been a solid solution implemented.

Concern over immigration is not "bullshit." Many rational, thoughtful people who are not racist, ignorant, fearful, or "bitchin" are justifiably concerned. Anywhere uncontrolled mass immigration has occurred in the world, it was a disaster for the people who were already there. The Roman Empire... Australia... the early days of the US... and now. If we're smart we'll get a handle on this now. There are already 11 million people living illegally in the US. That's a huge problem, for any number of reasons.
 

Diamondback 2/2

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The fact that there are jobs "99% of America won't do" while there are so many on welfare is part of the problem.

I don't disagree.

If you don't have a job, there shouldn't be many (any?) legit jobs that you "won't do." But we've made welfare too comfortable; you can get most of the trappings of the lower middle class through government handouts, so where's the incentive to do better?

There is no incentives to get off of the government tit. And although I agree there needs to be massive reforms made in welfare programs. I don't see the average American going out to pick crops for pennies on the dollar.

Additionally, a cheap labor force depresses wages and discourages innovation. Why make tech improvements if you're guaranteed a stream of cheap and expendable labor?

If the technology was available to do some of these "cheap labor" job's I think most people would invest in equipment over people. The issue, is somethings simply need human labor. But I do see your point of view, the problem in the mean time, is people still want to eat strawberries and shit in toilets now.

The "jobs Americans won't do" argument is only useful if immigrants would do those jobs for a while and then go home. They don't.

That's not completely accurate, many immigrants go back home, specifically in off seasons, or when visas are up. The illegals don't as much because of the possibility of not being able to get back to work. Hints my point that the process should be easier to do legally.

They stay here, and I don't blame them. But any children they have here are citizens, and being Americans, they WON'T do "the jobs Americans won't do." So now you have to bring in even more immigrants to do more jobs for an ever-expanding US population. Those children aren't grateful to be in the US, they look around and say "why don't *I* have that?" just like anyone else would. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law by illegally immigrating to the US. That alone is a good enough reason to deport them.

I simply disagree with you here. I personally have family and friends who have become citizens and are very productive citizens. Paying taxes, serving in the government, etc. Technically the above statement would apply to my mother in law, who just retired as a school principal after 40 years as a teacher/administrator. She also has two master degrees and is currently volunteering at inner city Schools to assist in Spanish to English schooling for non-English speaking kids. Her daughter my wife, second generation, has a master degree in child psychology, has worked as a child protective services investigator, a volunteer councilor for abused children and is currently a kindergarten teacher.

And it is "that damn hard" to come up with something that works, which is one of the reasons there hasn't been a solid solution implemented.

It is when people who do not understand the full extent of the problem, half ass dealing with it. Either by wanting to go extreme "get them out of here" or "hell they are future voters give them some free shit". Politicians need to talk with the people who actually deal with this on a day-to-day bases, the good the bad and find some common ground to work from.q

Concern over immigration is not "bullshit." Many rational, thoughtful people who are not racist, ignorant, fearful, or "bitchin" are justifiably concerned. Anywhere uncontrolled mass immigration has occurred in the world, it was a disaster for the people who were already there. The Roman Empire... Australia... the early days of the US... and now. If we're smart we'll get a handle on this now. There are already 11 million people living illegally in the US. That's a huge problem, for any number of reasons.

I agree it's a problem and there is reason for concern. That's why I started this thread and why I've posted what I have. I will admit my post that you qouted had a bit more personal feeling attached to it. I've been debating this with friends and family as well as now on here. I'm personally disgusted with the possibility of a wall being built and some sort of mass deportation. I'm also not foolish enough to state we don't need to do something. I'm just hoping for some balance as we approach the issue. I'm pretty right leaning on most issues, but I do not support the way the GOP has been approaching this particular issue.
 

Lefty375

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The fact that there are jobs "99% of America won't do" while there are so many on welfare is part of the problem. If you don't have a job, there shouldn't be many (any?) legit jobs that you "won't do." But we've made welfare too comfortable; you can get most of the trappings of the lower middle class through government handouts, so where's the incentive to do better? Additionally, a cheap labor force depresses wages and discourages innovation. Why make tech improvements if you're guaranteed a stream of cheap and expendable labor?

The "jobs Americans won't do" argument is only useful if immigrants would do those jobs for a while and then go home. They don't. They stay here, and I don't blame them. But any children they have here are citizens, and being Americans, they WON'T do "the jobs Americans won't do." So now you have to bring in even more immigrants to do more jobs for an ever-expanding US population. Those children aren't grateful to be in the US, they look around and say "why don't *I* have that?" just like anyone else would. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law by illegally immigrating to the US. That alone is a good enough reason to deport them. And it is "that damn hard" to come up with something that works, which is one of the reasons there hasn't been a solid solution implemented.

Concern over immigration is not "bullshit." Many rational, thoughtful people who are not racist, ignorant, fearful, or "bitchin" are justifiably concerned. Anywhere uncontrolled mass immigration has occurred in the world, it was a disaster for the people who were already there. The Roman Empire... Australia... the early days of the US... and now. If we're smart we'll get a handle on this now. There are already 11 million people living illegally in the US. That's a huge problem, for any number of reasons.

Do you have any recommendations for books or published papers on this topic?
 

DA SWO

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The jobs American's won't do is a bullshit argument; maybe 20 years ago, but not today.
Illegals are getting STEM jobs all over the place, good paying jobs in the Meat Packing Industry where bi-lingual Americans are the only ones getting looked at.
Construction use to be a good summer gig for college students (got me through school) not anymore as illegals own those jobs.

They also need to come up with a restitution plan for ID Theft Victims, those illegals are costing people their tax refunds, Lawyers won't help unless the refund is in excess of $3K, as anything lower won't cover fees.

Legal Immigrants spend $40-$50K on legal fees but illegals pay $1k? Justify that.

I also want a quid-pro-quo (and SOFA) with Mexico regarding our ability to own property or run a business south of the border, and accidental crossing by armed individuals.
 

TLDR20

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Illegals are getting STEM jobs? Where? Do you have examples of large scale illegal immigrants working STEM jobs? Or do you mean legal immigrants and holders of Visa's are taking STEM jobs?
 

DA SWO

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Illegals are getting STEM jobs? Where? Do you have examples of large scale illegal immigrants working STEM jobs? Or do you mean legal immigrants and holders of Visa's are taking STEM jobs?
Both, we've had issues here with illegals from China and India.
I'll see if I can find the newspaper story.
 

TLDR20

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It is pretty hard to get jobs in things like engineering, medicine and chemistry without a background check, those tend to check your name and social security number at a minimum. Pretty hard to have a whole lot of people getting passed that.
 

CQB

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Anyone looked at what we have done here? We have a good immigration program but it restricts illegal entry. The only real thing our previous PM Tony Abbott got right. My personal opinion is that the refugee convention should be repealed as it was just for the time it was legislated but that time had passed but it would be political suicide for any government to walk away from it. I'm centre left but just scratch my head at Obamas' immigration policy...sovereignty seems to be eroded more & more.
 

Diamondback 2/2

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I've personally never heard or read anything about illegals taking STEM jobs. I have no doubt it has happened, but not in any form of mass.

I've personally helped 3 younger guys get jobs at my old plumbing company. Apprenticeship that leads to $80+K job a year. They all quit, said it was too hard, didn't like the heat of working outside.

I've got a close friend who runs a remodeling company, he can't keep younger help, they just won't work. Always on the phone's, have to be supervised to sweep a floor. His employees are all in the late 40's and 50's. He has to turn down bigger jobs, because he can't get the younger generation to come to work. The sad part is he is supper GOP "get them all out of here, they are stealing our jobs". He isn't being under-bid, he won't bid jobs he can't do. I sit and listen to him contradict himself all the time. One minute he is telling me how he couldn't bid a job becausehe can't get the manpower, next he is telling how illegals are going to put him out of business. If he get hire people that are skilled, legal and bid those bigger jobs, he would.

The mass majority of illegals in Texas are working in services, janitorial, food service, yard maintenance, etc. You even mention a job like that to Americans, at $8 an hour and they turn their nose up at you. @Marauder06 was spot on with his post, that people not wanting to get up and work because of welfare programs. I disagree with the notion of wage suppression, as people want cheap foods and services. That requires low wages for those positions. If you raise wages, the consumer pays more for the food or service, the consumer uses less, the company profit margin falls, the positions and hours get cut, people refuse to work shit job's, the cycle continues.

Although I do think the act of illegally entering the country is a crime, I think it could be handled with some fines and a pathway to legal status. People who stole identity, broke other laws, etc, should obviously be punished for those crimes. Keep in mind, the Obama administration pretty much put the word out that it was a free for all the last 8 years. There are alot of people here because laws weren't enforced, etc.
 

ThunderHorse

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Americans today lack work ethic, that much is clear. Part of it has to do with the everyone needs to go to college mentality which is completely untrue. The other part is we've lost so many manufacturing jobs a generation will grow up seeing their parents not working and having given up

I still don't get how you can go into a place and buy beer with your lonestar card and jump into a brand new escalade, makes me think I'm doing it wrong.
 
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