Iraq and ISIS Discussion

[Diamondback 2/2]

In one area that I have the biggest problem with religion, is politics. As @pardus stated, getting in the way of science. There are amazing breakthroughs in stem cell research, genetic mapping, and genetic alterations. That could in fact cure or fix much of the illnesses within not only the human species but many animal species. They are being blocked by laws and regulations brought on by bible clutching politicians. I think that is fucking stupid.

I also think Islam is fucking stupid, as it's a barbaric and archaic belief system that is built on a lie that it's a religion of peace. I don't blame the ignorant people of the muslim world for their blind following. It's what they know and what their fucked up tribal culture demands them to follow. However, these religious leaders, who know they are using the smoke and mirrors of religion to control the masses is what sends me into a "kill them all rage".

I'm not against religion, quite the contrary. However, I am firmly against extreme interpretation and practice. Especially when it used to restrict others freedom's and lifestyle.

 

[Gunz]

Until we as a species realise that religion is fake and inherently evil, this shit will never, ever end.

When I wrote that there were some aspects of Islamic justice that I admire, I was thinking more of Saudi punishments for serious criminals...not stoning women for adultry or beheading infidels. I should've made that clear although it was an off-the-cuff response to @CQB s post.

 

[CQB]

I have to agree with Brother @pardus. The Old Testament is pretty much a collection of stories with a rubbery historical context & not that reliable, but the western tradition has been smart enough to the worth of the best of it and reserved decisions on the more extreme verses. The Christian tradition has slavery and the whole horror show in the Old Testament, but we figured out that certain practices were redundant. Funnily enough, Islam is based on the Old Testament stories, for as desert Arabs had no tradition of their own Mohammed looked to the Jews to provide parables to illustrate his message. The Koran is littered with Old Testament Prophets. The word of God...roit...bunch of fairy tales. It is however, a peaceful and supportive religion at its' core as reading some interpretations of the Q Society lead me to believe. As for the extremist minority...there's no hell fire hot enough.

 

[Topkick]

Christians are no better, probably murdered more people too.

Yep! Any religious group which uses their ideology as an excuse to kill or oppress... is the problem, which leads right back to my OP. We agree that religion is and always has been a problem, and as I stated, the only solution is that each man be responsible for ONLY his own version of the afterlife. That will never happen because religion is used as an excuse to wreak havoc on others.

 

[Topkick]

It is however, a peaceful and supportive religion

Peaceful at its core? I cant agree.

I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.

Quran 8:12

 

[DocIllinois]

I have to agree with Brother @pardus. The Old Testament is pretty much a collection of stories with a rubbery historical context & not that reliable, but the western tradition has been smart enough to the worth of the best of it and reserved decisions on the more extreme verses. The Christian tradition has slavery and the whole horror show in the Old Testament, but we figured out that certain practices were redundant. Funnily enough, Islam is based on the Old Testament stories, for as desert Arabs had no tradition of their own Mohammed looked to the Jews to provide parables to illustrate his message. The Koran is littered with Old Testament Prophets. The word of God...roit...bunch of fairy tales. It is however, a peaceful and supportive religion at its' core as reading some interpretations of the Q Society lead me to believe. As for the extremist minority...there's no hell fire hot enough.

I'm with @Topkick on this one. Have you read the Koran? Its ad nauseam full of entries which lay the groundwork for waging holy war.

Islam is a religion of militant conquest, with world being divided between the "House of Islam" and the "House of War." This should indicate how Muslims ultimately view the means by which non believers will be dealt with. I have yet to see so-called moderate Muslims opposing this doctrine in anything close to a meaningful way.

(FWIW, I'm no great fan of any other religion, either.)

 

[CQB]

Yes, the Sword verses & others, agree totally & I've read it reluctantly, to get a sense of what motivates them & agree again it's a religion that seeks to convert actively. The Quilliam Society publish a different slant on Islam, are progressive & challenge the extremist interpretation. There are moderates out there but they don't sell newspapers or get airtime like Anjem Choudary & others do.

 

[Topkick]

There are several verses in the Koran which authorize lies and deception to outsiders if to further the cause. So how can you know without a doubt that there are peaceful people within this community?

 

[CQB]

That's a good point and one I understand. My view is you can be friendly, but they'll never be your friends for that reason. It's them that have that view not us and forewarned is forearmed.

 

[DocIllinois]

Yes, the Sword verses & others, agree totally. The Quilliam Society publish a different slant on Islam and are progressive. There are moderates out there but they don't sell newspapers or get airtime like Anjem Choudary & others do.

You've hit the crux of the problem with holy books altogether, certainly the books of the three Abrahamic religions.

There are Muslims out there who take a different, more violence justifying slant to the Koran - more than enough to be a genuine scourge upon civilization at this point, obviously.

By what measure does one decide that another's interpretation (view) of a verse isn't the "right" one? Because it just doesn't make sense in the modern day? How much sense do we really expect a book(s) written by desert people living in abysmal ignorance in the 14th Century to make?

 

[Topkick]

It still makes sense to them. They fight against evolution.

 

[Topkick]

Some "experts" even believe that the peaceful Islamic posture is part of the jihad strategy. Without pretending to be peaceful there could be no infiltration.

 

[CQB]

You've hit the crux of the problem with holy books altogether, certainly the books of the three Abrahamic religions.

There are Muslims out there who take a different, more violence justifying slant to the Koran - more than enough to be a genuine scourge upon civilization at this point, obviously.

By what measure does one decide that another's interpretation (view) of a verse isn't the "right" one? Because it just doesn't make sense in the modern day? How much sense do we really expect a book(s) written by desert people living in abysmal ignorance in the 14th Century to make?

It makes as much sense as following the beliefs of a 30 year old carpenter who arrived in town on a donkey, allegedly immaculately conceived and once dead, came back to life. You can put that together with Mohammed ascending to heaven on winged horse. But I digress. It doesn't make sense to me to regress to another time in any way, shape or form. the one thing that really makes me angry is the moral high ground that they claim to inhabit.

@Topkick, it's a religion that seeks converts, as does Christianity. One question that needs to be asked: why do they have to kill to be considered pius?

 

[ThunderHorse]

Islam doesn't seem to want to have a reformation, which it severely needs. Every single power base likes preaching Jihad. From the Wahhabis, to the Salafis, even to the Shias. Not one of them wants coexistence. And we're perfectly happy supporting the worst of them.

 

[TLDR20]

Islam doesn't seem to want to have a reformation, which it severely needs. Every single power base likes preaching Jihad. From the Wahhabis, to the Salafis, even to the Shias. Not one of them wants coexistence. And we're perfectly happy supporting the worst of them.

It took Christianity 1400 some years... I think they will figure it out. You should go to the Middle East and let them know your thoughts IMO...

 

[CQB]

As discussed, the Quilliam Society is an interesting outfit. The Enhaddha Party in Tunisia is another who have made some changes as well. I do agree though that the process will be a long one.

 

[ThunderHorse]

It took Christianity 1400 some years... I think they will figure it out. You should go to the Middle East and let them know your thoughts IMO...

That's not an excuse in the information age.

 

[TLDR20]

That's not an excuse in the information age.

To bring about seismic shifts in religion and culture instantly and because others say it should be done? Or you going to Saudi to preach reformation?

 

[Salt USMC]

There are several verses in the Koran which authorize lies and deception to outsiders if to further the cause. So how can you know without a doubt that there are peaceful people within this community?

This bears some explanation because I see it so often. The practice you're referring to, taqqiya, requires some context. It's a controversial topic and there is a distinct split between the Sunni and Shiite interpretations of the practice. The verses you're referring to were written at a time when Islam was still expanding and Muslims often came into conflict with local religious authorities. The practice was permitted when followers faced extreme persecution - they were allowed to deny their faith in the face of death or dismemberment. Now that Islam is a large religion, Sunni theologians generally say that taqqiya is not permissible except in the most extreme circumstances.

The Shiite view comes from a similar context. Under the Abbasid Caliphs, the followers of 'Ali were essentially rooted out and forced to renounce their beliefs or be put to the sword. The Shiites essentially lived as a minority sect until about the 16th century when the Safavids came to prominence. Because they lived for so long as a persecuted minority, their view on taqqiya came to encompass more situations where the practice was permitted, which included jihad.

Now you also have to consider that only about 10% of the world's Muslim population are Shiite. And even then, how many of them are devout enough to care about the practice of concealing their faith in the conduct of jihad? You're talking about a minority within a minority.

Really, taqqiya is not something that anyone needs to worry about.

 

[Topkick]

Disagree that nobody should be concerned. Some verses speak specifically about deceiving non believers. The use of deception is the only way to infiltrate and conquer. If we know that is the motive we don't allow it to happen. I am not referring to lies about saving your ass from another sect but more about a long term strategy.