Kevin Tillman states to Congress that Pat was murdered

[Looon]

My plt was involved in something similar during OJC. Regardless of what I think about that situation, or how I think it was handled, it doesn't make a fuck. I still don't talk about it to this day.

As far as feeling betrayed, I know what that's like to, but I will never go to the fucking news and whine about how fucked up I think it was. I made a committment to the Regt and the Army not to disclose a fucking thing unless given permission by them. Whether I agree with it or not. I signed on the line to do the secret cool guy shit.

It's part of the package. IMO

And that's where the part of this comes in:

Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chose profession..............

 

[Paddlefoot]

I wonder how Pat would view all of this.

My guess is he would be pretty upset. One of the things that most impressed me after Tillman signed on the line was that he played it so close to the vest. I wonder if his brother Kevin, knowing full well that this was against Pat's wishes, is going ahead anyway. We'll never know.

You make an excellent point, Paddlefoot. If I were in charge of the Army, this is one of the things that I would do with the parents. As a coach, even in high school, we have to be concerned with how to deal with the media for both ourselves as coaches and for any of our players that get interviewed post game. We always have a preseason meeting with parents to set up expectations of what their roles are with regards to their children participating in our program, and to make them aware of any procedures that they need to follow.

The same principles apply to the Army, although of course the stakes are much higher for the participants. I would make sure that parents understand what their roles are with their children, how to deal with any media coverage, OPSEC/PERSEC issues, and "what happens if your son/daughter..." Now I have no idea whether any of this is a current procedure, but that is how I believe it should be handled nonetheless... :2c:

If only it were so easy, Typhoon. Unfortunately, in the Army as in life, everybody at some point sets their own agenda as to how they are going to approach things. Casey Sheehan's mother being the most egregious example of dishonoring her son's sacrifice. There are a lot of ways she could have coped and maybe helped other parents, she instead decided to become a political pawn.

I highlighted part of your post to illustrate the thing that bothered me most concerning that article that was written about me. I was upfront with my family and most friends about what I would be doing in the Army, including that I would be attending language school and learning Arabic. I didn't tell that it was "TS" or anything like that, but I thought they would consider it sensitive and not to be divulged in a public forum. That information was talked about in the article. I also knew that Iraq had very active intelligence operations worldwide, to include operatives here in the US. I would not be surprised at all if that article somehow reached an office in Baghdad while I was deployed. Keeping my language ability a secret had I been taken prisoner, at that juncture, would have been next to impossible.

The Mukhabarat was still attempting to infiltrate agents into the US after the Gulf War. One of them was just convicted in Chicago in a federal trial. He wasn't convicted of espionage, but you can bet any agent is going to feed whatever info his handlers want to know, to include information that might include military ops or personnel.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/04/04/america/NA-GEN-US-Iraqi-Trial.php

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/343467,latchin041607.article

 

[Typhoon]

Unfortunately, in the Army as in life, everybody at some point sets their own agenda as to how they are going to approach things.

Oh you are right about that, Paddlefoot. But I believe that if the Army went to parents and said, in effect, "You're an important part of our team: Here's how you can be a partner in our success...", it might cut down on this type of problem occurring. Training in "How to deal with the media" is SOP for players, coaches, and administrators in the NFL. As we live in a media driven society it stands to reason that the military should operate along the same lines...

The Mukhabarat was still attempting to infiltrate agents into the US after the Gulf War. One of them was just convicted in Chicago in a federal trial. He wasn't convicted of espionage, but you can bet any agent is going to feed whatever info his handlers want to know, to include information that might include military ops or personnel.

This is very interesting on multiple levels. First, the Iraqi foreign intelligence under Saddam wasn't very successful in planting agents abroad, and had, if memory serves me correctly, pretty much given up on the practice for some time. So this was a different turn of events. Second, it is indicative of Saddam's enmity towards the US; and perhaps offers some small bit of justification for our recent military actions against him. Finally, this case also shows that perhaps we ought to think twice before allowing large numbers of Iraqi refugees into this country as has been proposed...

 

[pardus]

Finally, this case also shows that perhaps we ought to think twice before allowing large numbers of Iraqi refugees into this country as has been proposed...

I beleive the USA has a moral obligation to accept large numbers of Iraqi refugees.
The way the USA abandoned the Montanards (for example) in the 70's was/is a disgrace IMO.
I don't think it should be an open door, but every person who works for the USA in Iraq should be giving preferential treatment with regards to coming here as a refugee. :2c:

(obviously, I beleive the pullout of US forces will be the signing of the death warrant for the Iraqi govt)

 

[Typhoon]

I beleive the USA has a moral obligation to accept large numbers of Iraqi refugees...The way the USA abandoned the Montanards (for example) in the 70's was/is a disgrace IMO.

Absolutely, Pardus, but we need to be very careful this time around because the stakes are much higher; higher than even when we accepted all of the Cubans from the Mariel boat lift...And we need to not abandon the Iraqi people by not leaving before our work is done there in the first place...

Pardus, I can't remember :eek: Did I show you the picture of my grandfather with the Montagnard tribesmen from 1928? As soon as things quiet down here I will scan it to show the rest of the gang here...

 

[pardus]

Agreed!

I don't think I've seen that photo, I would very much like to though.

 

[Paddlefoot]

First, the Iraqi foreign intelligence under Saddam wasn't very successful in planting agents abroad, and had, if memory serves me correctly, pretty much given up on the practice for some time.

Actually, they had pretty good success at placing people abroad, to include the US, throughout the 80s and beyond. That is one of the reasons I was upset, because I didn't have any control what was being put out publicly from 7000 miles away, and aside from not knowing initially what was put out, I also couldn't be sure who was reading it.

Early on in OIF, our local rag started going even a bit further, printing pictures of people deployed and biographical info, which I thought was foolish. I didn't hold it against my mother for talking back in '90, I'm pretty sure somebody she worked with at the school district contacted the newspaper (the "feel good" part of the story was about a huge care package of about 6 boxes they sent me and my company). The article went way beyond that, and started getting political and also giving up too much information.

If anybody from the media ever contacted me to talk about a third party, the very first thing I would do is consider the person in question. Aside from keeping my mouth shut, I would get in touch with that individual to let him/her know that the media was asking questions. Even if that person gave the thumbs up to talk to them, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't. I know how things get taken out of context, in both the print and the broadcast mediums. They are always looking for some quote or pithy comment that stands out, and in my mom's case they got one.

The Tillman situation is troubling on several levels, not the least of which is the Army brass making an effort to not only withhold information from the family, but to concoct a completely different version of events to portray what occured in a different light. This situation had already occured early on with Jessica Lynch, and here they were doing the same thing a few years later. At this point, no matter what the Army says on the matter, the Tillmans are never going to buy whatever story they are selling. And seeing people held accountable at this point, in their eyes, is just further manipulation of a tragic situation. While I don't agree with what Kevin Tillman said, and I have a feeling Pat would be upset with his testimony, I can see why they appeared in public. That family has, like Pat, avoided the media since he joined the Army and after he was killed. I guess a family can only take so much before they get their side of the story out.

 

[Robk]

long time ago I was in the S1 shop at my first assignment and was tinkering around on the computer there waiting on a friend to get done for the day. I found a file there with a form letter stating that "Your Son, _______ was killed in the line of duty while on a reconnasaince mission." I asked what that was all about and was informed that if someone should die that was the standard letter that would be forwarded to the family with the BC's signature. Seemed messed up all those years ago but I'm wondering if something along these same lines didn't happen in this case.


R

 

[CAL]

long time ago I was in the S1 shop at my first assignment and was tinkering around on the computer there waiting on a friend to get done for the day. I found a file there with a form letter stating that "Your Son, _______ was killed in the line of duty while on a reconnasaince mission." I asked what that was all about and was informed that if someone should die that was the standard letter that would be forwarded to the family with the BC's signature. Seemed messed up all those years ago but I'm wondering if something along these same lines didn't happen in this case.


R

Maybe, but the fuckups by the unit/govt go WAY beyond that even if it did take place.

 

[Paddlefoot]

long time ago I was in the S1 shop at my first assignment and was tinkering around on the computer there waiting on a friend to get done for the day. I found a file there with a form letter stating that "Your Son, _______ was killed in the line of duty while on a reconnasaince mission." I asked what that was all about and was informed that if someone should die that was the standard letter that would be forwarded to the family with the BC's signature. Seemed messed up all those years ago but I'm wondering if something along these same lines didn't happen in this case.


R

It used to be the norm that a parent, at some point, would receive a personal handwritten letter from the commander of a service member KIA. I don't know if the Army has since codified and regulated how a commander contacts somebody's family member, but at some level the personal touch has been lost. It's all about CYA these days, I'm afraid.

 

[AWP]

When I went through OCS we had to write just such a letter, some of which were read to the class. I can imagine that some of my weaker brothers and sisters crafted a form letter in their units.

 

[Paddlefoot]

Brings to mind the accounts detailed in We were Soldiers once..., where the families were being notified by telegrams being delivered by taxi cab drivers, and the wives would dread the appearance of a taxi showing up in the neighborhoods over those few days.