CANUSUKAUSNZ Looks better. ;)
NATO, RIP?
- Thread starter Marauder06
- Start date
CANUSUKAUSNZ Looks better. ;)
I agree, but also think that anyone in NATO needs to bring something to the table and nut up when it's time.
I worked in Bosnia and Kosovo with a variety of troops. Italians did good work for us, but many (Germany) for instance are there for the beer. That's what Gates is alluding too. Brits, Canadians, Italians, Dutch and Norwegians pulled their weight and then some. French were 50-50, you always wondered whose side they were on. There are a lot of countries not mentioned, and those "Old European" countries make me wonder if NATO is worth it.
In Kabul I enjoyed working with all those you've mentioned, most of the German troops wanted to fight but their leadership/public doesn't have the stomach for it; so they drink. One country that surprised me a lot was the the Bulgarians, great troops.
I'm glad to hear this from you mate.... thanks a lot! Italians are for the chicks not for the beer...
Since you obviously missed it hoser, it was done in alphabetical order, it also was the only way to make it pronounceable.
"Team America" works just fine ;)
An alliance means you work together, an attack on one is an attack on all but a lot of the Euro countries don't see it that way in my opinion. To be up front I think my countries contribution is shit, the Aussies was shit but they are getting stuck in now and doing their bit which has put us to shame.
I'm looking at NATO like a composite recce patrol.
S1 is the commander is a hard charger and has no problems.
S2 is the scout and he's ready to get stuck in but requires clearance at his Govt level before he can engage hostiles.
S3 can go out but he can't do sentry or fire his weapon.
S4 can't go out so he just sits at the FOB listening to his iPod and hanging around the green bean.
S5 is good to go but he can't carry a pack or a weapon so someone else has to carry that for him.
So off goes our patrol, they get contacted, for a while its just S1 holding off the Muj until S2 gets the go ahead to fire because they aren't shooting at him directly. S3 is hiding behind a rock shouting words of encouragement because that's all he can do. S4 is of course at the FOB and S5 is in the prone and can't really do shit because S1 and S2 had to split his load because he can't carry anything.
Now miraculously they survive this shit fight and its home for tea and medals which are distributed evenly because the PL HQ doesn't want any member to feel that his contribution isn't as important as the others.
I'm looking at NATO like a composite recce patrol.
S1 is the commander is a hard charger and has no problems.
S2 is the scout and he's ready to get stuck in but requires clearance at his Govt level before he can engage hostiles.
S3 can go out but he can't do sentry or fire his weapon.
S4 can't go out so he just sits at the FOB listening to his iPod and hanging around the green bean.
S5 is good to go but he can't carry a pack or a weapon so someone else has to carry that for him.
So off goes our patrol, they get contacted, for a while its just S1 holding off the Muj until S2 gets the go ahead to fire because they aren't shooting at him directly. S3 is hiding behind a rock shouting words of encouragement because that's all he can do. S4 is of course at the FOB and S5 is in the prone and can't really do shit because S1 and S2 had to split his load because he can't carry anything.
Now miraculously they survive this shit fight and its home for tea and medals which are distributed evenly because the PL HQ doesn't want any member to feel that his contribution isn't as important as the others.
Way to smart of an idea, it would never be used.
policemedic
Verified SWAT
I never wonder about the French. Lousy, collaborating bunch of no good cunts. Not because of the men, mind you; I've met some outstanding Legionnaires and other French military folk. Their military commanders and politicians (can't truly call them leaders) are the problem.
In Afghanistan the French have fought well up near Kabul/ Bagram. Their earlier efforts down south between Kandahar and Spin Buldak were less than impressive IMO.
The Germans have done well once they started fighting. I chalk up their inactivity to their political climate back home, but if they can't fight due to politics then they are worthless.
I've never worked around the Italians and with them in RC-W I never followed them.
The Norwegians have treated AFG like a paid holiday.
The Dutch army in Tarin Kowt have done great things and seen hard fighting.
The Swedes will fight if it comes down to it, but they aren't the most aggressive.
I have an absolute and utter contempt for Poland's army.
Other nations here are a mixed bag and I don't know enough about them: Latvia and Slovakia come to mind.
Some words about the composite F-16 unit in AFG: It SUCKS. I think the Norwegians, the Dutch, and one other nation contribute to it and that group of cowboys need to go home. They would repeatedly brief that they were going to do "JTAC training" in RC-N and then a few hours later show up in RC-S nearly out of gas. Of course, the US would provide it even though it wasn't fragged and we'd complain to the unit and to NATO. The next day? Same thing. The next week? Same thing. This went on for months with no change. The number of HATR's filed because of their airmanship and flagrant disregard for our air battle managers running the air war is staggering. They almost took out a B-1 a number of years ago in one incident. No kidding, three blips on a radar screen merged. :eek:
So maybe some of you can see why I support the Commonwealth and have problems with NATO. My experiences have been less than positive.
The only thing I know about the Polish military is that some Polish SF dude ended up getting his shit stolen enroute to afghanistan, and him and his supply dude basically canvassed every fucking compound up and down Disney road at Bagram until they ran into me on gate guard...
In no particular order:
- The latrines in FOB Ghazni were smeared with human feces and finding turds in the showers was not uncommon. This practice finally stopped, but for months you could guarantee to see it.
- They had a patrol make contact and the unit hopped in their vehicles and went back to FOB Ghazni. The next morning Americans were doing their thing with the ANP at the gate when some locals rolled up in a truck and said "This one's yours, we thought you may want him back" and kicked a dead white guy out of their truck. The Americans go nuts and do a head count; everyone's good. They notify higher HQ and the Polish at GHZ and the Polish calmly said, "Yeah, he's ours. Thanks" and never said another word about it. That patrol left a guy at the scene of the TIC, went back to the FOB, and never reported it. Maybe Polish leadership knew, but not a single American was aware that a Polish soldier was missing.
- When the Polish Defense Minister visited he refused to fly on his country's Mi-17's and used American Chinooks instead.
- I can't go into one story in detail because of the equipment involved, but the short version is that even after a doctor and the technicians involved told the Polish that something wouldn't hurt them, the Polish refused to listen to the experts.
- I watched them load up for a patrol in MRAPs stenciled "USMC." One MRAP was used as a mobile PX. Driver, A driver, and gunner were the crew while the back was filled with a few small refrigerators, and cases upon cases of drinks and snacks.
- They made a point to place Polish flags on all of their vehicles (most of which are US supplied and paid for) and the result is that the number of TICs against Polish-flagged vehicles is significantly lower than other military (read, US) vehicles.
- The Polish Army used to run the LZ at FOB Ghazni. American helos would land and the Polish would fill them with their soldiers. If any seats were left, the Americans had to make a mad dash for it. We finally lined up along the LZ, ignoring the NCOs running the LZ, and would just sprint for the birds in a first come, first served method of finding a seat. It became so bad the US Army had to assign an NCO and O to the LZ just to make sure that Americans could use their own aircraft. And the Polish helicopters? They refused to allow US soldiers or contactors on them. So not only were they flying those to Bagram with Polish nationals, but they were also flooding US birds too.
- The Polish Rape Van: In 2008-09 there was a van on Bagram which would pull up to a single runner at night or in low light and ask the runner for directions. When the runner would stop to talk to a coalition soldier, the door wiuld slide open, the American was abducted, beaten, gang raped, and then dumped in a dark corner of the base. I know of 3 cases, 2 male and 1 female, and others were hinted to by our leadership. The rapists were finally ID'ed and their "punishment" was to ban them to FOB Ghazni.
- Their patrols would rarely leave the hardball; they've practically ceded control of much of Ghazni province to the TB.
- The aerostat crew watched an Afghani plant an IED and promptly notified the Polish TOC. The Poles acknowledged and then did nothing. A few hours later one of their own convoys ran over the IED.
- At Ghazni they told the Americans that due to space considerations the Americans would have to place bunk beds in the rooms of their b-huts. A b-hut sleeps 8 with each man occupying a roughly 2m x 2.5m room (mine measures 6.5' x 7'); prisoners in American jails have almost twice that space. The Americans contested this and the Polish finally backed down. About that time the Americans realized that the Polish had converted a number of their b-huts to 4 man huts complete with small kitchens....and they wanted the Americans to live 16 to a hut?
- Like rockets? Then go to FOB Ghazni where it is hit every day, sometimes several times in broad daylight. There's no security around the FOB.
- Speaking of security, I watched Polish soldiers "escorting" local nationals and allowing them to carry cameras and cell phones on base. I've actually seen Afghans taking photos of every corner of the base while a Polish soldier watched.
- They had a meeting with the local elders when they arrived. To show them what Poland could do militarily they ran a small demonstration capped with a fly-by of Polish helicopters. The locals almost lost their minds when they saw Mi-24's and Mi-17's. Public relations FAIL.
- For the longest time the DFAC never had anything but boxed milk or water and I saw why. When the KBR guys would try to stock the coolers, Polish soldiers would get up and take every case of soda and Gatorade off of the carts. They actually would go outside and call other soldiers in who would come in through the exit doors to take cases of drinks.
So yeah....I've seen little of their conduct to warrant any respect for them.
Shocking...
There were reports (including media) that situation in Ghazni is bad and US forces were send to support ours, that PR fail with Hinds also was known, and I knew that some things are not going well (so to speak) , but I'm shock...rapes? Was the thing reported to the our contingent or something?
Flags was put on vehicles suppiled by US - the same way as in Iraq - was any objection from US or request not to do this?
Thanks for reply
There were reports (including media) that situation in Ghazni is bad and US forces were send to support ours, that PR fail with Hinds also was known, and I knew that some things are not going well (so to speak) , but I'm shock...rapes? Was the thing reported to the our contingent or something?
Flags was put on vehicles suppiled by US - the same way as in Iraq - was any objection from US or request not to do this?
Thanks for reply
The rapes: I have to think that the Polish leadership were told, but I don't know for certain. What I do know is that within a few months of the assailants being ID'ed as Polish that the Polish contingent on Bagram was greatly reduced. The official word was that the US was told a certain number of rear detachment troops and helo maintainers were needed but that number grew substantially and the "exiles" were nothing more than capping the number of Polish soldiers based on previously agreed levels. That may be the case, but the timing was odd to me.
On the flags: I'm not sure if any objection was made. The flags were something I and my coworkers noticed. One great thing about sitting on an LZ for hours hoping to catch a flight to anywhere but GHZ is that you meet some interesting people. We had several US troops relay the info about TICs against Polish-flagged vehicles being less than unflagged vehicles for the same stretches of road. On a side note, US flags aren't seen (perhaps prohibited?) on vehicles and flags in camps have to be limited to "official" flags like the flagpole for the FOB. Meanwhile, the Polish Army has flags on anything leaving the wire? That seems to be more than just national pride to me.
I wonder - due to nature of our criminal law - there should start some investination or case in court - especially when someone in official capacity knew but did nothing to start criminal case.
But from other standpoint, in 2007 there was serious case when our soldiers killed civilians (maybe it was accident - by now - trial ended with "no guilty" sentence) and it was very high profile case (including dawn raids of MP SWAT Teams when suspects were in back in Poland) , so the rapes would possibly be another thing known to media.
Maybe they simply wanted to be distinguished from U.S - I don't think there is any our official legislation that orders putting hi-viz signs on vehicles - and no-one thought about further consequences. Wich don't surprise me either.
