Need for advanced infil techniques...

[Brill]

MSG,

As a MFF Team daddy, MFF JM, and MFF JM ATIC grad, tandem is the way to bring enablers for MFF operations. It's a TTP that's been proven in combat and I'll leave it at that.

I know exactly what you mean.;)

My last trip, we used alot of enablers. They went on HAF's and GAF's with us, but our mission was mostly DA and Combat FID. We did not allow them to drive, gun...pretty much they stayed with the head shed during movement and when it came to actions on, it was up to the TA who decided when it was ok for them to come inside the house.

MSG,

This brings up a good point. While I have no problems working my gear at the VDO or pulling security while you guys make the hit, but WHICH FACTORS determine whether your enablers (PJ, CCT, TACP, SOT-A, OGA, etc) transition from a support role to actual participation (drive, working the gun, etc)? Trust? Confidence? Necessity?

From a SOT-A standpoint, I cannot be effective if I'm in a stack or placing a breaching charge. BUT I also don't want your guys to have to carry me on their shoulders (or clip in to their rig).

 

[18C4V]

MSG,


MSG,

This brings up a good point. While I have no problems working my gear at the VDO or pulling security while you guys make the hit, but WHICH FACTORS determine whether your enablers (PJ, CCT, TACP, SOT-A, OGA, etc) transition from a support role to actual participation (drive, working the gun, etc)? Trust? Confidence? Necessity?

From a SOT-A standpoint, I cannot be effective if I'm in a stack or placing a breaching charge. BUT I also don't want your guys to have to carry me on their shoulders (or clip in to their rig).

Those are great questions but the answers will vary from team to team based upon their task org, staffing needs, and detachment leadership. For example, we had a dedicated JTAC or CCT assigned to our team. Their sole function was ISR, watching the Rover, and going kinetic when the need to go kinetic happened. My trip to OEF, we did not have a JTAC/CCT but one of the guys on my team was a ETAC.

I do know that one of my sister teams used a support guy as a driver, but that guy was connected to that team by constantly doing the work ups with that team. And they had a different mission then our team. For me to use a non ODA guy as a driver, he needs to know all of our mobility SOP's to include down gunner drills (not using RG33's) and that includes being a gunner or mini gunner.

My team switched out driver/gunner based upon mission cycle of the TA's. For example, I was a TA and when my jundies were on leave, I was either the lead driver or a gunner. When I was on mission cycle, I sat in the TA seat while the other TA's drove or manned the gun.

 

[surgicalcric]

...I do know that one of my sister teams used a support guy as a driver, but that guy was connected to that team by constantly doing the work ups with that team....For me to use a non ODA guy as a driver, he needs to know all of our mobility SOP's to include down gunner drills (not using RG33's) and that includes being a gunner or mini gunner...

Lindy:

We can talk more about it when you get here but this is the way you will find it with most ODAs.

We had two CRD guys, a mechanic, and a 25-series guy sliced off to us for our trip to OND. All 4 spent from Sep 10 (NTC) - Feb 11 training with our ODA during PMT. They drove, gunned, worked in the shoot-house, too part in med classes, commo classes, demo, mortar and Carl Gustav ranges, etc... A couple of them drove and gunned for us from time to time depending on the mission and task org. However had they shown themselves not interested in learning our SOPs or not proficient at them they would have been left "in the rear with the gear."

On your next rotation you would do well to find what team you will be assigned to, if you dont get stuck in the AOB, and embed yourself with them. Now, due to personalities found pervasive in the SOT-A community this will not work for everyone. Some guys are just gonna sit in the truck no matter how much they think they are "up to speed" and in all honesty those may be the guys you slice off to the AOB, but for some of the others it may work out that they are given the opportunity to be more than a backseat rider.

Crip

 

[0699]

As a MFF Team daddy, MFF JM, and MFF JM ATIC grad, tandem is the way to bring enablers for MFF operations. It's a TTP that's been proven in combat and I'll leave it at that.

The force does need to move to a better rig and maybe even do what the Marines do for MFF Stand offs which is using a static line to deploy their main. Obviously you still have to do the work up to be proficient under canopy, using NODS, compass, computer, talking on radio and listening to the high man under canopy and that's doing it slick.

As for proficiency, it's like any other ODA in any SF Company, it's up to the detachment leadership to make things happen regardless of their infil skills. I know budget's are tight but there's ways to think outside the box to make things happen. I just had four guys on my team re-enlist in January, three guys who re-enlisted in December, that's seven guys on my team who re-enlisted because of me doing my job as the Zulu. The other teams look like student company with their high turn over rates.

Riggers need to go to MFF school so that they can do IP's or rigger checks on the rigs while we're packing our chutes. Malfunction NCO's are E-5's and above and they have to be riggers. A long time ago, a SOF JM could be a malfunction NCO if you went to the class to be a malfunction NCO. I was one of the last guys who went to that class in 2004.

The active duty teams depending on what Group they belong to can have most of their guys MFF qualified. In the guard, it's a little different since slots are hard to get. I got 11 guys on my team with 8 guys qualed, 1 in school right now and 2 with hard reserved slots so by the end of April, I'll have 11 guys fully qualified. I lost my 12th guy who was qualed who went on to better and bigger things in the Army. ;)

As for Ranger School, go while you can...with the Army downsizing they will go back to how it used to be....combat arms only (I went in 1993 when it was combat arms only).

My last trip, we used alot of enablers. They went on HAF's and GAF's with us, but our mission was mostly DA and Combat FID. We did not allow them to drive, gun...pretty much they stayed with the head shed during movement and when it came to actions on, it was up to the TA who decided when it was ok for them to come inside the house.

Just to be clear, my "agree" refers to this part.

I can't speak intelligently to all the MFF/HAF/GAF stuff.

 

[tigerstr]

Those are great questions but the answers will vary from team to team based upon their task org, staffing needs, and detachment leadership. For example, we had a dedicated JTAC or CCT assigned to our team. Their sole function was ISR, watching the Rover, and going kinetic when the need to go kinetic happened. My trip to OEF, we did not have a JTAC/CCT but one of the guys on my team was a ETAC.

I do know that one of my sister teams used a support guy as a driver, but that guy was connected to that team by constantly doing the work ups with that team. And they had a different mission then our team. For me to use a non ODA guy as a driver, he needs to know all of our mobility SOP's to include down gunner drills (not using RG33's) and that includes being a gunner or mini gunner.

My team switched out driver/gunner based upon mission cycle of the TA's. For example, I was a TA and when my jundies were on leave, I was either the lead driver or a gunner. When I was on mission cycle, I sat in the TA seat while the other TA's drove or manned the gun.

Dont want to hijack the thread, but I am a bit perplexed about the difference between a ETAC and a JTAC (since a JTAC can be enlisted) and/or a JFO. Would appreciate an explanation in plain english if it can be given without breaching OPSEC.

Also, whats a TA?

 

[18C4V]

Dont want to hijack the thread, but I am a bit perplexed about the difference between a ETAC and a JTAC (since a JTAC can be enlisted) and/or a JFO. Would appreciate an explanation in plain english if it can be given without breaching OPSEC.

Also, whats a TA?

ETAC is was what we had before JTAC....I think ETAC was replaced in 2005 or 2006, I can't remember exactly what it stood for...either Emergency Tactical/Terminal/Air/Controller. TA has been defined as either training advisor or tactial advisor.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

EDIT: Stupid post, back in my lane...

 

[goon175]

Hristos, next you guys are going to tell me we shouldn't attend SOTACC!

If were talking about a skill that is hard to stay current on, SOTAC is probably one of the hardest out there as far as that goes.

As far as going to the cool guy infil schools, or cool guys schools in general, I think the way the 75th does it is the way to go: Go to Ranger school, pass that, and then we will send you to the cool stuff as needed, because you have "proven" yourself.

As far as slots at these schools go, I think that could be remedied by just giving the Army guys preference to the slots over other branches. The Navy has their own free fall school now, and I heard a rumor that the USMC has a free fall course as well now. Maybe the Navy could quit sending all the EOD and SWCC guys to free fall and open up slots the AFSOC guys to attend their course. USASOC is the largest SOF organization out of the four branches, let the smaller branches go to the Navy one, and the SWC course can be for USASOC units.

 

[surgicalcric]

If were talking about a skill that is hard to stay current on, SOTAC is probably one of the hardest out there as far as that goes.

Something to the effect of 4 controls every 6 months with one needing to be within 30 days of arriving in theater and a graded control once a year with an instructor... Unfortunately you cant count controls like jumps and do 8 mid year to count for the entire year... It is very difficult for guys to stay current with the AD Groups having a SOTACC guy at the Ops Det, the chances the NG can get it done - since USASFC/USASOC wont fund the sustainment - remains slim. We end up having to call down to the HAVEACE committee to make ad hoc arrangements with whomever is taking care of their stuff and schedule a training event around that one thing.

...As far as slots at these schools go, I think that could be remedied by just giving the Army guys preference to the slots over other branches. The Navy has their own free fall school now, and I heard a rumor that the USMC has a free fall course as well now. Maybe the Navy could quit sending all the EOD and SWCC guys to free fall and open up slots the AFSOC guys to attend their course. USASOC is the largest SOF organization out of the four branches, let the smaller branches go to the Navy one, and the SWC course can be for USASOC units.

Has the Navy's course been blessed off on by the AF? If I am not mistaken, and I could be, at one time attendees of the Navy MFF course could not attend the USASOC MFFJM course and subsequently couldnt put guys out. Curious if they got all that worked out. B, do you know the details on that?

In the not too recent past someone had the brilliant idea of sending every SFQC grad to MFF. And while I believe every SF guy who can be should be the logistics of doing so just isnt there. Even if the sister services withdrew all their guys from the USASOC course and they started a class every two weeks there would be enough slots or time to send everyone. Eventually a guy with enough smarts called BS on the plan and it was stopped before getting started.

Crip

 

[goon175]

In the not too recent past someone had the brilliant idea of sending every SFQC grad to MFF. And while I believe every SF guy who can be should be the logistics of doing so just isnt there. Even if the sister services withdrew all their guys from the USASOC course and they started a class every two weeks there would be enough slots or time to send everyone. Eventually a guy with enough smarts called BS on the plan and it was stopped before getting started.

Ya know, static line insertions do the trick for about 85% of the things SOF need to do. What is it in SF, about on MFF team and one Combat Diver team per battalion? That is honestly probably enough. Does every SEAL need to be MFF qualified? probably not, the same ratio would probably be appropriate, but hey they are doing it so whatever. Rangers? Only the Recce teams have a real use for it, and we barely jump enough static line as it is. I guess overall what I am getting at is, no force (outside of the SMU's) needs absolutely everyone in the unit to be MFF qualified. As far as SOT-A and other CS enablers go, having a couple slots per group or whatever would be adequate, so that when the once in a blue moon need arises, you just grab one of those guys for that mission. Would I love to get the chance to go to MFF? sure, but honestly there are quite a few other "non-insertion" schools that I would rather go to. As much as everyone denies it, sometimes it really does come down to "yeah, I wanted the badge/recognition of having that qualification". I have said it before, and I will say it again: alot of the coolest schools/training the army or military in general has to offer don't come with a badge.

 

[goon175]

Something to the effect of 4 controls every 6 months with one needing to be within 30 days of arriving in theater and a graded control once a year with an instructor... Unfortunately you cant count controls like jumps and do 8 mid year to count for the entire year... It is very difficult for guys to stay current with the AD Groups having a SOTACC guy at the Ops Det, the chances the NG can get it done - since USASFC/USASOC wont fund the sustainment - remains slim. We end up having to call down to the HAVEACE committee to make ad hoc arrangements with whomever is taking care of their stuff and schedule a training event around that one thing.

That sounds about right. I know our 13F's said it was a pain in the nut sack to schedule the jet's, the ranges to drop on, etc. I did not envy the logistics they had to work through to stay current.

 

[18C4V]

I have said it before, and I will say it again: alot of the coolest schools/training the army or military in general has to offer don't come with a badge.

that's true!!! If every cool guy school that I went to had a badge or widgit, I will be walking around with a magic wand, wearing a dark cloak and have pockets full of tools that would be considerd a felony to possess. I think one of the coolest exams I had was...I had to steal a car and drive it to a certain location in order to graduate.

 

[18C4V]

Has the Navy's course been blessed off on by the AF? If I am not mistaken, and I could be, at one time attendees of the Navy MFF course could not attend the USASOC MFFJM course and subsequently couldnt put guys out. Curious if they got all that worked out. B, do you know the details on that?

In the not too recent past someone had the brilliant idea of sending every SFQC grad to MFF. And while I believe every SF guy who can be should be the logistics of doing so just isnt there. Even if the sister services withdrew all their guys from the USASOC course and they started a class every two weeks there would be enough slots or time to send everyone. Eventually a guy with enough smarts called BS on the plan and it was stopped before getting started.
Crip

J,
My MFF JM class, we had a Navy EOD guy who did not go to the Army Course. The Marines have their own MFF PC due to the different parachute system that they use. However, the Army MFF JM Course and ATIC is the proponent that Air Force, Navy, Marines, and Army have to go though or until the sister services stand up thier own courses. The Marines sit on the same classes that we do, but during JMPI, they have their own different track.

My guys who go though the basic course tell me that SEALS go through the Army course when the SEALS can't pass their own Navy Course. I do know that there are more SF slots than ever before and that's because the Navy and Marines have thier own schools.

 

[policemedic]

that's true!!! If every cool guy school that I went to had a badge or widgit, I will be walking around with a magic wand, wearing a dark cloak and have pockets full of tools that would be considerd a felony to possess. I think one of the coolest exams I had was...I had to steal a car and drive it to a certain location in order to graduate.

Now that sounds like a fun, highly diverting way to spend a few days on Uncle Sam's dime!

 

[18C4V]

Now that sounds like a fun, highly diverting way to spend a few days on Uncle Sam's dime!

I haven't had to use that skill yet, but other skills sure came in handy ;)

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Now that sounds like a fun, highly diverting way to spend a few days on Uncle Sam's dime!

Yeah that sounds like a damn fun and useful course, especially on the E&E in denied A/O. Our SOP when I was in the sniper section, was to car jack an Iraqi and drive like hell to the green zone ECP.

 

[DA SWO]

ETAC is was what we had before JTAC....I think ETAC was replaced in 2005 or 2006, I can't remember exactly what it stood for...either Emergency Tactical/Terminal/Air/Controller. TA has been defined as either training advisor or tactial advisor.

ETAC=Enlisted Tactical Air Controller, Pre-GrenadaEnlisted were severely limited when it came to calling airstrikes in.

Ranger ALO made it happen.

 

[RetPara]

Is it just me or does this topic get rehashed in one form or another on annual basis? Seriously this shit has been debated for AT LEAST the last thirty years that I have been privy to or held an interest in it. Seriously... BAC keeps going as a motivational tool from one point. But lurking in the dark recesses of my mind is the capability to rebuild a Brigade from the 82nd from scratch if one of the national level Good Idea Fairy's actually pulled the trigger on one of the nightmare contingency plans I worked on. There have been a number of times in the past the trigger was damn near pulled.

As for "advanced infil techniques"... If you inserting such a large package that you can afford to add bodies for CTT, SOTA, and so on... That is one HELL OF A BIG PACKAGE to try and do a covert insertion by "advanced methods". Improbable as it could be... stranger things have happened. Outside of the SMU's I don't see that happening all that much...

 

[goon175]

Here is one question: with all the competitiveness for these schools for guys already IN the Army, how do ROTC cadets get slots to these courses?

 

[x SF med]

that's true!!! If every cool guy school that I went to had a badge or widgit, I will be walking around with a magic wand, wearing a dark cloak and have pockets full of tools that would be considerd a felony to possess. I think one of the coolest exams I had was...I had to steal a car and drive it to a certain location in order to graduate.

We all know that school doesn't really exist and if it did it wouldn't and nobody would ever graduate anyway, they'd just disappear in a puff of smoke.