Nurse arrested for refusing to draw blood from DWI suspect

The Hate Ape

MARSOC
SOF Support
Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
599
Location
West Coast
It wasn't just the assault on the nurse, it was the fact that he interfered with patient care of all of the patients in the department at the time. Every one of those patients could legitimately sue him, his supervisor, and the SLPD for that.

Got it - but a logical application of this statement assumes that the 20 minute ordeal resulted in patient-care coming to a halt. That would be an overstatement and imply that patient-care also could not sustain its intended quality without that specific nurse present. This point is an over-simplification at best and unless any tangible evidence is produced I doubt it will be held upheld by a judicial authority.

A safe assumption is that the nurse has probably taken a shit longer than she was held in custody.

I understand the principle of the situation in the hospital in regards to patient care, but question if anyone has observed the principle of this man's service while weighing the cause/effect and trade value of firing him AWA demoting the Lieutenant. The irony is our collective demand for a realistic and sympathetic approach from the detective yet refusing to apply that mentality in a decision that will impact his entire life.
 
Last edited:

trin

Medic
Verified Military
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
76
Location
Texas
Got it - but a logical application of this statement assumes that the 20 minute ordeal resulted in patient-care coming to a halt.
It appears that that's exactly what happened. At the very least, it was significantly degraded. And there's also the concept of "transfer of care"--Officer Payne forced her to abandon her patients. If she were to leave her patients of her own accord, without formally briefing another person of equal or higher licensing about each patient in her charge, she would be fired and lose her nursing license.

A safe assumption is that the nurse has probably taken a shit longer than she was held in custody.
I would say that assumption is wrong. Ask hospital nurses (especially in ED) about their restroom breaks. Not only that, but she was restrained in a hot vehicle for most of that time. If you or I did that to a child, we would be in jail. And he may well be facing criminal charges on that count, also.

question if anyone has observed the principle of this man's service while weighing the cause/effect and trade value of firing him AWA demoting the Lieutenant.
You make it sound as though this was their only career mistake. That's evidently not the case. Not only that, but their demonstrated attitude that their word is law, and their contempt for anyone who stands in their way, is cause for deep concern.
 

The Hate Ape

MARSOC
SOF Support
Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
599
Location
West Coast
Your Post
Your Post

Both posts were filled with absorbable information and were exactly what I was looking for as an answer to my "for my Layman's understanding" made previously -

My only addition and final statement on the matter is that a lot of supporting arguments in favor of the Detective's firing that deviate from the risks-to-patient situation (IE: hot car? really?) are too loosely interpreted and amplified for my liking. @trin your sanitation of the firing by stating an assumed pattern of behavior is moot unless you have access to this guy's service record supported by working experience with him.

Anyone can (and should) argue in favor of the unit's operational integrity - in-which, as a paramedic, this detective should have understood. That is more than enough justification for a finding of wrong-doing. This is an objective stance and IMHO holds as the only gold-standard argument. The relative stance questions/observes the results of his actions/wrong-doing, influencing factors (the Lieutenant), and the overall value of the detective as an officer of the law in future endeavors.

We discuss the operational integrity of this unit but dismiss the operations this guy was likely involved in with his unit? He wasn't just hospital guy. You don't just throw away a guy who has served that long; emotional stake aside, consider the effects in the AO with a diminished experience track.

The only thing this guy's firing indicates to me (considering how fast it occurred) is that it met a public demand.
 
Last edited:

policemedic

Verified SWAT
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
5,681
Location
A galaxy far, far away
I've read through the entire thread from page 01 and found comments from @TLDR20 @Muppet and @policemedic that struck me the most.


While I have zero-percent doubt in your ability to gain tactical control of the situation, I hate this particular mentality implied - the worst thing you can do when a cop gets out of line is make an attempt to get physically involved. He's the guy with the gun, he's the guy with the "con" and if push came to shove there are a lot more guys that'll stack that doorway with his needs in mind first. Her colleagues appeared to be following along through the situation including during the arrest. One could have addressed her directly to calm down while the other continued to discuss the situation with the detective. Would it have helped? Doubt it, but had it worked it would have been worth it.

@Muppet & @policemedic
You both seem pretty set against the detective for his actions - from my layman's viewpoint, what am I missing? He didn't seem that rough in the video (yeah he grabbed her but he didn't slam her against a wall or yell like what I would believe to be rough) and appeared to be only interested in removing her from the situation. Sure, she was the nurse in charge which I assume means more than I understand currently - often police officers appear to use the handcuffs/arrest as a tool for navigating a particular situation. The Lieutenant's stance seemed to encourage his actions as well if that was indeed the guy on the phone.

Dude has been honorably serving society since before I was born in the 1980s as both a LEO and Paramedic - while I agree he could have likely navigated the situation better I wouldn't necessarily label him "a fucking cunt" who "needs to be fired" especially considering the amount he's sacrificed. The nurse was arrested, for what seemed to be 20 minutes, and she was in handcuffs/crying/etc... it was a dick move but not a move worthy of being kicked in the well for Sparta.

He seems to be getting fired over the publicity of the event, where, the effects seem exaggerated at best. I'm glad the nurse stood her ground and applaud her tenacity to stick to what she believed to be the best of patient care - I just wish the cop wasn't losing his entire livelihood over a stupid ass situation.

Tagged for later.
 

policemedic

Verified SWAT
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
5,681
Location
A galaxy far, far away
I've read through the entire thread from page 01 and found comments from @TLDR20 @Muppet and @policemedic that struck me the most.


While I have zero-percent doubt in your ability to gain tactical control of the situation, I hate this particular mentality implied - the worst thing you can do when a cop gets out of line is make an attempt to get physically involved. He's the guy with the gun, he's the guy with the "con" and if push came to shove there are a lot more guys that'll stack that doorway with his needs in mind first. Her colleagues appeared to be following along through the situation including during the arrest. One could have addressed her directly to calm down while the other continued to discuss the situation with the detective. Would it have helped? Doubt it, but had it worked it would have been worth it.

@Muppet & @policemedic
You both seem pretty set against the detective for his actions - from my layman's viewpoint, what am I missing? He didn't seem that rough in the video (yeah he grabbed her but he didn't slam her against a wall or yell like what I would believe to be rough) and appeared to be only interested in removing her from the situation. Sure, she was the nurse in charge which I assume means more than I understand currently - often police officers appear to use the handcuffs/arrest as a tool for navigating a particular situation. The Lieutenant's stance seemed to encourage his actions as well if that was indeed the guy on the phone.

Dude has been honorably serving society since before I was born in the 1980s as both a LEO and Paramedic - while I agree he could have likely navigated the situation better I wouldn't necessarily label him "a fucking cunt" who "needs to be fired" especially considering the amount he's sacrificed. The nurse was arrested, for what seemed to be 20 minutes, and she was in handcuffs/crying/etc... it was a dick move but not a move worthy of being kicked in the well for Sparta.

He seems to be getting fired over the publicity of the event, where, the effects seem exaggerated at best. I'm glad the nurse stood her ground and applaud her tenacity to stick to what she believed to be the best of patient care - I just wish the cop wasn't losing his entire livelihood over a stupid ass situation.

Let me try to address this in the order you’ve set things out.

From your perspective, the arrest wasn’t overly rough. Looking at it through the lens of military training where interpersonal violence is a matter of day-to-day routine in training, it probably isn’t violent. But constitutionally it is, and it was avoidable. Assuming, arguendo, an arrest was warranted he could have made it in many other ways, including asking her to step outside of the unit so it wasn’t done in front of patients or colleagues. Had he not been so argumentative in his dealings with her—no doubt the result of his certainty he was dealing with someone who was in contempt of cop—he could have easily deescalated the situation. Honestly, you’d be amazed how often a simple (forceful but polite) order to “put your hands behind your back, you’re under arrest” results in compliance. Given the situation and educational levels involved here, an approach that didn’t involve multiple threats followed by lunging, grabbing and dragging the nurse would likely have resulted in compliance with the (illegal) arrest.

As to the use of handcuffs generally, they can be used to temporarily detain someone who may be violent or likely to flee during a Terry stop (an investigative detention or what has come to be misleadingly called a ‘stop and frisk’). I’ve done so many times, but they aren’t a negotiating tool to manage situations. They are temporary restraints used to ensure everyone’s safety.

The detective is a paramedic. That means he completely understands what a charge nurse is. Importantly, she wasn’t just any charge nurse. She was in charge of the burn unit. Burn unit assignment requires specialty training, and assignment as charge requires even more faith in one’s professional ability. While charge nurses generally don’t take patient assignments, they can tag in when a RN needs a break, etc. Removing one from the unit would likely affect the care of many patients. These are all things the detective can be assumed to have known; hospital operations should not be foreign to him.

This brings us back to the decision to arrest. If she was truly breaking the law, he could have arrested her at a later date with a warrant. We do it all the time. However, at least in PA, her conduct had not even remotely approached the level of criminality. Had the detective gone to the patient’s room and she physically blocked his access or directed someone else to do so, then we’ve got something. But that didn’t happen.

Now, let’s look at decision making.

Payne is a detective with 27 years on the job. I’m in my 26th, so we’re similar in that respect. Detectives and patrol officers have different job functions that result in slightly different bodies of knowledge and expertise. Detectives are generally presumed to have a more in-depth knowledge of investigative techniques and the laws surrounding their use than patrol officers, though both may obtain warrants and other judicial process. One way to look at it is detectives should be more strategic thinkers where patrol officers tend to be more tactical. There is also the additional and very pertinent fact that Payne is a paramedic who should not be unfamiliar with what medical care will be provided to the truck driver whose blood he sought to draw. I say all that to say that there were other simpler, completely unconfrontational avenues that could have been pursued to get the information he wanted. As a detective, he can be assumed to have known this; using legal process to get information is conservatively 40% of a detective’s job function.

The fact that Payne believed it was legal, ethical, and moral to effect an arrest to obtain blood for an accident that didn’t occur in his jurisdiction when the patient couldn’t consent, was not going to be charged, and when he clearly knew there was no probable cause for the issuance of a warrant (he was heard saying as much on body camera footage) simply shocks my conscience as a professional police officer.

There is the issue of the lieutenant’s order, of course. Similar to the military, Payne had no obligation to follow an order he should have known to be illegal and unconstitutional. To briefly address the LT’s order, you have to understand that in most police departments a LT is a highly ranked individual. In my cop shop, rank goes P/O, DET, CPL, DET SGT, SGT, LT, CPT and then deputy chiefs and the chief herself. For someone that senior to give an order like that, without even being on the scene, boggles the fucking mind.

Quite frankly, the only acceptable course of action for Payne would have been to contact the assigned investigator in the Logan Police Department (where the accident occurred) and suggest that they obtain a warrant for the truck driver’s medical records if they felt there was sufficient probable cause to move forward. The hospital undoubtedly did blood testing that would served the same purpose as Payne drawing forensic labs, if there was cause to conduct a criminal investigation focused on the truck driver. But there wasn’t, and Payne knew it.

I will go out on a limb and say this is not the first time Payne has let his ego get in the way of his good sense, and it isn’t the first time he has mistreated someone. I’m not sorry he no longer has a badge.
 

trin

Medic
Verified Military
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
76
Location
Texas
Let me try to address this in the order you’ve set things out.

Very well laid out. I appreciate your perspective on this situation.

I will go out on a limb and say this is not the first time Payne has let his ego get in the way of his good sense, and it isn’t the first time he has mistreated someone. I’m not sorry he no longer has a badge.

That would not surprise me in the least. I'm not sorry, either.
 

The Hate Ape

MARSOC
SOF Support
Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
599
Location
West Coast
Let me try to address this in the order you’ve set things out.

From your perspective, the arrest wasn’t overly rough. Looking at it through the lens of military training where interpersonal violence is a matter of day-to-day routine in training, it probably isn’t violent. But constitutionally it is, and it was avoidable. Assuming, arguendo, an arrest was warranted he could have made it in many other ways, including asking her to step outside of the unit so it wasn’t done in front of patients or colleagues. Had he not been so argumentative in his dealings with her—no doubt the result of his certainty he was dealing with someone who was in contempt of cop—he could have easily deescalated the situation. Honestly, you’d be amazed how often a simple (forceful but polite) order to “put your hands behind your back, you’re under arrest” results in compliance. Given the situation and educational levels involved here, an approach that didn’t involve multiple threats followed by lunging, grabbing and dragging the nurse would likely have resulted in compliance with the (illegal) arrest.

As to the use of handcuffs generally, they can be used to temporarily detain someone who may be violent or likely to flee during a Terry stop (an investigative detention or what has come to be misleadingly called a ‘stop and frisk’). I’ve done so many times, but they aren’t a negotiating tool to manage situations. They are temporary restraints used to ensure everyone’s safety.

The detective is a paramedic. That means he completely understands what a charge nurse is. Importantly, she wasn’t just any charge nurse. She was in charge of the burn unit. Burn unit assignment requires specialty training, and assignment as charge requires even more faith in one’s professional ability. While charge nurses generally don’t take patient assignments, they can tag in when a RN needs a break, etc. Removing one from the unit would likely affect the care of many patients. These are all things the detective can be assumed to have known; hospital operations should not be foreign to him.

This brings us back to the decision to arrest. If she was truly breaking the law, he could have arrested her at a later date with a warrant. We do it all the time. However, at least in PA, her conduct had not even remotely approached the level of criminality. Had the detective gone to the patient’s room and she physically blocked his access or directed someone else to do so, then we’ve got something. But that didn’t happen.

Now, let’s look at decision making.

Payne is a detective with 27 years on the job. I’m in my 26th, so we’re similar in that respect. Detectives and patrol officers have different job functions that result in slightly different bodies of knowledge and expertise. Detectives are generally presumed to have a more in-depth knowledge of investigative techniques and the laws surrounding their use than patrol officers, though both may obtain warrants and other judicial process. One way to look at it is detectives should be more strategic thinkers where patrol officers tend to be more tactical. There is also the additional and very pertinent fact that Payne is a paramedic who should not be unfamiliar with what medical care will be provided to the truck driver whose blood he sought to draw. I say all that to say that there were other simpler, completely unconfrontational avenues that could have been pursued to get the information he wanted. As a detective, he can be assumed to have known this; using legal process to get information is conservatively 40% of a detective’s job function.

The fact that Payne believed it was legal, ethical, and moral to effect an arrest to obtain blood for an accident that didn’t occur in his jurisdiction when the patient couldn’t consent, was not going to be charged, and when he clearly knew there was no probable cause for the issuance of a warrant (he was heard saying as much on body camera footage) simply shocks my conscience as a professional police officer.

There is the issue of the lieutenant’s order, of course. Similar to the military, Payne had no obligation to follow an order he should have known to be illegal and unconstitutional. To briefly address the LT’s order, you have to understand that in most police departments a LT is a highly ranked individual. In my cop shop, rank goes P/O, DET, CPL, DET SGT, SGT, LT, CPT and then deputy chiefs and the chief herself. For someone that senior to give an order like that, without even being on the scene, boggles the fucking mind.

Quite frankly, the only acceptable course of action for Payne would have been to contact the assigned investigator in the Logan Police Department (where the accident occurred) and suggest that they obtain a warrant for the truck driver’s medical records if they felt there was sufficient probable cause to move forward. The hospital undoubtedly did blood testing that would served the same purpose as Payne drawing forensic labs, if there was cause to conduct a criminal investigation focused on the truck driver. But there wasn’t, and Payne knew it.

I will go out on a limb and say this is not the first time Payne has let his ego get in the way of his good sense, and it isn’t the first time he has mistreated someone. I’m not sorry he no longer has a badge.

Your answer is an incredible wealth of knowledge and a golden example of why I choose to maintain an active membership.
 
Last edited:
Top