Official Ukraine/Georgian Thread

TLDR20 said:
We didn't get involved in Syria because other better options presented themselves. I for one am done getting involved in regional squabbles or other countries civil wars. We have no obligation to come running every time someone gets their feelings hurt or their peepee's slapped. I don't give a shit if Russia takes over the whole Ukraine, not at all. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Not for me, not one bit. I also don't buy that this somehow reflects on our status as a superpower. It is a territorial dispute that we should have no part of.


I'm no expert, and don't claim to be, but to me this whole mess seems overblown.
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I agree with you and I don't, but I largely agree with you. The problem is one of history (and yes, I'm going to violate Godwin's Law).

History has shown us how empires start out conquering smaller nations by diplomacy or force. Eventually you have a behemoth everyone must confront and the behemoth is probably not benign. Nations ebb and flow, but vast enterprises start off as a regional conflict, and then another, and then another...

The Nazi's reminded us that it happens in our modern, civilized world while curiously we ignore how a superpower came into being because this isn't the first time Mother Russia "adopted" the local children. The US didn't exactly come into this world with the land we have now, we took a lot of it from others in bites and gobbles.

Since the fall of the the Soviet Union we've seen nations fragment, but not a lot of land grabbing. Now Putin's back and trying to revive the Bear. Soon a bunch of regional conflicts will become a global problem unless we're fortunate to have Putin pay for a ferry ride across the river Styx like Alexander or some of the Mongol khans.

The real danger is escalation, but at the same time we can't sit back and give the guy a thumbs up. As I've posted earlier we also don't have many options, but we should exercise those available to us. Otherwise we become isolationist and that harms everyone.
 
TLDR20 said:
Wasn't the agreement with the previous government?
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Come on, you know as well as I that is a non starter as a position. Every agreement ever signed is null and void when a new administration takes over, in every country in the world? Imagine the catastrophe that would be.
 
I was reminded about this gem today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/o...from-russia-on-syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

We all know he's full of shit but I'd like to see him called out on this just to hear his response if Syria was substituted with Ukraine:
Putin said:
From the outset, Russia has advocated peaceful dialogue enabling Syrians to develop a compromise plan for their own future. We are not protecting the Syrian government, but international law. We need to use the United Nations Security Council and believe that preserving law and order in today’s complex and turbulent world is one of the few ways to keep international relations from sliding into chaos. The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not. Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression.
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Freefalling said:
I agree with you and I don't, but I largely agree with you. The problem is one of history (and yes, I'm going to violate Godwin's Law).

History has shown us how empires start out conquering smaller nations by diplomacy or force. Eventually you have a behemoth everyone must confront and the behemoth is probably not benign. Nations ebb and flow, but vast enterprises start off as a regional conflict, and then another, and then another...

The Nazi's reminded us that it happens in our modern, civilized world while curiously we ignore how a superpower came into being because this isn't the first time Mother Russia "adopted" the local children. The US didn't exactly come into this world with the land we have now, we took a lot of it from others in bites and gobbles.

Since the fall of the the Soviet Union we've seen nations fragment, but not a lot of land grabbing. Now Putin's back and trying to revive the Bear. Soon a bunch of regional conflicts will become a global problem unless we're fortunate to have Putin pay for a ferry ride across the river Styx like Alexander or some of the Mongol khans.

The real danger is escalation, but at the same time we can't sit back and give the guy a thumbs up. As I've posted earlier we also don't have many options, but we should exercise those available to us. Otherwise we become isolationist and that harms everyone.
Click to expand...

Fighting a war on another continent in another superpowers back yard is foolish. Anyone who would call for such a thing is a moron.
pardus said:
Come on, you know as well as I that is a non starter as a position. Every agreement ever signed is null and void when a new administration takes over, in every country in the world? Imagine the catastrophe that would be.
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Yeah I get that. But the legit democratically elected govt was overthrown. We normally don't support such things.
 
And that leader left (with encouragement, sure), and the democratically elected parliament voted to replace him. Hell, even a number of Yanukovych's supporters voted for it. I am not by any means intimately familiar with Ukraine's specific laws on this matter, but as far as I can tell, it seems like they removed him in a democratic fashion/through democratic means.
 
TLDR20 said:
But the legit democratically elected govt was overthrown. We normally don't support such things.
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Dust of that history book!

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
 
lindy said:
Dust of that history book!

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
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Ok there bud, good one, now how about all the shady as fuck despot dictators we have supported/kept in power all these years. Put your Freedom boner away for a minute.
 
TLDR20 said:
Fighting a war on another continent in another superpowers back yard is foolish. Anyone who would call for such a thing is a moron.
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Maybe, yet we did it in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and to a slightly lessor extent Iraq and Afghanistan. I think a more important issue here is that we are weak as a nation and as a military at the moment.

TLDR20 said:
Yeah I get that. But the legit democratically elected govt was overthrown. We normally don't support such things.
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Good point, but in this case we do support it.
Interestingly I heard the new Ukrainian leader won just 4% of the vote in the last election, I wonder how long he lasts.
 
TLDR20 said:
Ok there bud, good one, now how about all the shady as fuck despot dictators we have supported/kept in power all these years. Put your Freedom boner away for a minute.
Click to expand...

Yeah there have been some very dodgy alliances, I understand why in the big picture (anti commie etc...), but damn, some of them were awful and led to even worse things and new enemies down the road.
 
I trust an ex Soviet republic election like I trust a Russian election- like an untrustworthy toad.
 
1975022_10203331530194260_1367205461_n.jpg

"Someone needs to tell Putin that 'March' is a month, not an order." -Facebook FTW
 
TLDR20 said:
Fighting a war on another continent in another superpowers back yard is foolish. Anyone who would call for such a thing is a moron.


Yeah I get that. But the legit democratically elected govt was overthrown. We normally don't support such things.
Click to expand...
Philippines 1986-87ish.
 
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SOWT said:
Did the intel community see this coming?

I was in Kuwait when he annexed parts of georgia (we assisted the Georgian Goverment by expediting their troops return from OIF).

Seems like a pretty similar situation. If I was a former Soviet sates I'd just let my Russian Speaking provinces return to Russia and avoid all the dangers an accidental war could bring.

Again, the issue (like Hitler in Pre-WW II Germany), what happens when he runs out of Russian Speaking Provinces to annex?
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heh...funny note on that. Our CID unit was tasked with investigating crimes the Georgian troops were accused of on civilians, theft, assault, rape...etc, 10th Mountain had made complaints. They left the country just as we started up.
 

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