pardus
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Official Ukraine/Georgian Thread
- Thread starter CQB
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I hate to put a dark cloud over the globalist party, but I don't think 99% of America should care one bit about Ukraine. I can bet my bottom dollar that a lot of the folks I work with and the good majority of people on hunting/fishing/military forums will sound their outrage at whatever some hot chick on The Five was up in arms about yesterday. That's why I'm more or less done with Fox News, but their "Fair and Balanced" groupthink is a whole other topic (don't worry, I'm not going liberal).
All this tells me is that we beed to gain a bit of energy independence and settle some of our debt to lessen our ties to economy.
America has turned into the bossy girl in the 8th grade classroom who is too concerned about everyone else's business. I'm not saying we go to full scale isolationism, but on a sliding scale between globalist and isolationist- we are way too far left.
All this tells me is that we beed to gain a bit of energy independence and settle some of our debt to lessen our ties to economy.
America has turned into the bossy girl in the 8th grade classroom who is too concerned about everyone else's business. I'm not saying we go to full scale isolationism, but on a sliding scale between globalist and isolationist- we are way too far left.
Kraut783
SOF Support
"Crimea voters overwhelmingly approve referendum to secede from Ukraine"....expected, but interesting now....how does this proceed from here?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/16/polls-open-in-crimea-referendum-amid-high-tensions/
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/16/polls-open-in-crimea-referendum-amid-high-tensions/
Brill
SOF Support
Looks like his pen is full of ink! Take THAT you Commie bastards!!! 
http://media.washtimes.com/media/misc/2014/03/17/2014ukraine2eorel.pdf
http://media.washtimes.com/media/misc/2014/03/17/2014ukraine2eorel.pdf
Let them go, they are probably better off being part of Russia anyway.
Queeg
SOF Support
Ukraine officer killed in attack on Crimea base. Apparently due to this, ROEs for Ukrainian forces now allow them to return fire in self-defence.
That was a good call for Putin to deploy troops without insignia. This way when it's time to go loud he can just keep claiming these were the actions of Crimean rogue "self-defence" units. It'll get ugly once the Ukrainian mil decides to put up a fight.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26637296
That was a good call for Putin to deploy troops without insignia. This way when it's time to go loud he can just keep claiming these were the actions of Crimean rogue "self-defence" units. It'll get ugly once the Ukrainian mil decides to put up a fight.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26637296
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Brill
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So I was doing some reading on Crimea's political history...
- In 93, it seems as though Crimea was an autonomous area when the Budapest Memorandum was signed (the thing where Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for US and Russian protection).
- In 94, Ukraine ordered the dissolution of Crimea's autonomous gov't because it was mad that it was more pro-Russian than Ukrainian.
Interesting.
So what is the legitimacy of the agreement as it applies to crimea if Crimea was an autonomous zone at the time?
The whole autonomous notion is bogus in my opinion anyway. As I see it, it's what a state does when it realizes it controls an area that it can't control and/or doesn't want to be under said states control. It's basically a way to non-violently pasify an area without actually giving it independence.
- In 93, it seems as though Crimea was an autonomous area when the Budapest Memorandum was signed (the thing where Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for US and Russian protection).
- In 94, Ukraine ordered the dissolution of Crimea's autonomous gov't because it was mad that it was more pro-Russian than Ukrainian.
Interesting.
So what is the legitimacy of the agreement as it applies to crimea if Crimea was an autonomous zone at the time?
The whole autonomous notion is bogus in my opinion anyway. As I see it, it's what a state does when it realizes it controls an area that it can't control and/or doesn't want to be under said states control. It's basically a way to non-violently pasify an area without actually giving it independence.
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Lack of insignia inside Crimea + massing of troops = all options (including withdrawal) literally still on the table, at least as of a few days ago.
Russian Fighters to Counter NATO Deployments
Russia is considering deploying additional fighter jets to Belarus to counter Air Force F-15s and F-16s sent to reassure NATO allies in Poland and Lithuania, reported state-run RIA Novosti. Russian President Vladimir Putin said he opposes NATO's presence "on our historic territories," apparently referencing NATO's Eastern European member states, in a separate state-run media report released March 18. Russia already deployed six Su-27 fighters to a base just over the Polish and Lithuanian border where US fighters are currently stationed in response to Russian military incursions in Ukraine, a separate press report stated. "There is in fact an escalation of the situation near our borders . . . We will respond to it appropriately," said Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko, explaining his request for more fighters. As many as 15 additional Russian fighters could be dispatched under the two countries' mutual defense agreement, RIA Novsti noted. Ukraine's independent government in Kiev said it will not seek NATO membership, in a bid to calm tensions following Russia's annexation of the country's Crimea region on Tuesday, reported the Washington Post. NATO once again called on Russia to de-escalate and cease military hostilities against Ukraine in a statement earlier this week.
Like I asked earlier, what happens when he runs out of Ethnic Russian's to re-acquire?
Do we let him annex Poland and half of Germany?
Eventually we stop him from annexing, or end up in a shooting war.
Russia is considering deploying additional fighter jets to Belarus to counter Air Force F-15s and F-16s sent to reassure NATO allies in Poland and Lithuania, reported state-run RIA Novosti. Russian President Vladimir Putin said he opposes NATO's presence "on our historic territories," apparently referencing NATO's Eastern European member states, in a separate state-run media report released March 18. Russia already deployed six Su-27 fighters to a base just over the Polish and Lithuanian border where US fighters are currently stationed in response to Russian military incursions in Ukraine, a separate press report stated. "There is in fact an escalation of the situation near our borders . . . We will respond to it appropriately," said Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko, explaining his request for more fighters. As many as 15 additional Russian fighters could be dispatched under the two countries' mutual defense agreement, RIA Novsti noted. Ukraine's independent government in Kiev said it will not seek NATO membership, in a bid to calm tensions following Russia's annexation of the country's Crimea region on Tuesday, reported the Washington Post. NATO once again called on Russia to de-escalate and cease military hostilities against Ukraine in a statement earlier this week.
Like I asked earlier, what happens when he runs out of Ethnic Russian's to re-acquire?
Do we let him annex Poland and half of Germany?
Eventually we stop him from annexing, or end up in a shooting war.
Brill
SOF Support
Queeg
SOF Support
So Putin gained Crimea but lost his puppet regime in Ukraine and thus a buffer state. It just seems to me he has no choice but make a grab for Ukraine lest the interim gov't gives NATO the go ahead and establish points of presence there. Is that an oversimplification?
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I think he saw that he was losing Ukraine anyway, so mitigated his loses by grabbing up Crimea, which favored Russia anyway.
If Putin pushes any further into Ukraine I am almost positive NATO will bomb the shit out of his ground forces and probably crush whatever aircraft in Ukrainian/NATO airspace.
I am pretty confident that Putin is going stop where he is for now and use Syria and Iran as leverage points to get whatever sanction removed. He probably won't cut off his oil/gas export but I can see him doing the "we will only take gold" bit, maybe even jacking his prices up until we start shipping our oil/gas to the EU, at which point he drop the prices where we can't compete and fuck the whole market up.
Keeping this short, Putin is done with Ukraine for now, but he is just getting started with games for the ME and EU.
I am pretty confident that Putin is going stop where he is for now and use Syria and Iran as leverage points to get whatever sanction removed. He probably won't cut off his oil/gas export but I can see him doing the "we will only take gold" bit, maybe even jacking his prices up until we start shipping our oil/gas to the EU, at which point he drop the prices where we can't compete and fuck the whole market up.
Keeping this short, Putin is done with Ukraine for now, but he is just getting started with games for the ME and EU.
Queeg
SOF Support
Reuters says that Moscow is now expressing concern for the ethnic Russians in Estonia. Now where's my popcorn...
Brill
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Brill
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pardus
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I'm not so sure. I think he is going to consolidate Crimea and then look at other options. My feeling is that he wants at least eastern Ukraine.
The Baltic states have always been a thorn in the foot of the Russkies so I wouldn't be surprised if they're on the wish list as well, but they would be a much bigger play and one that would be much harder for the west to let happen without action.
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