Official Ukraine/Georgian Thread

[JBS]

I hate to put a dark cloud over the globalist party, but I don't think 99% of America should care one bit about Ukraine. I can bet my bottom dollar that a lot of the folks I work with and the good majority of people on hunting/fishing/military forums will sound their outrage at whatever some hot chick on The Five was up in arms about yesterday. That's why I'm more or less done with Fox News, but their "Fair and Balanced" groupthink is a whole other topic (don't worry, I'm not going liberal).

All this tells me is that we beed to gain a bit of energy independence and settle some of our debt to lessen our ties to economy.

America has turned into the bossy girl in the 8th grade classroom who is too concerned about everyone else's business. I'm not saying we go to full scale isolationism, but on a sliding scale between globalist and isolationist- we are way too far left.

Will you feel that way if he grabs the rest of Ukraine? Estonia? Latvia? Lithuania? Let's go all in with this line of thought and say we do nothing. What message does this send to China regarding Taiwan? I know that you are not advocating isolationism, but I've wrestled with this issue myself and for very similar reasons to those you've mentioned.

I am very much a Libertarian in the sense that America needs to worry about our own damn business, but there are a few things here that legitimately merit our concern. Is there anything Obama can do about it? Probably not. He's a weak leader with failed policies and dangerously naive ideas (reset relationship w/ Russia? LOL!!). But making a huge issue out of Ukraine is in my own opinion the wisest thing we can do. Staying flat or "neutral" on the matter is at the very least a betrayal to obligations we have to support our friends in that region. We need our allies there to be strong, not be systematically destablized and gobbled up. At worst, it will give a green light to Russian leadership to continue on this path. Also, if Putin succeeds in these (relatively) modest ambitions, consider the surge of support he will get from his inner circle. The voices of moderation around him will be weakened and the hawks will strengthen. In other words, there's a very good chance we'll see a recurrence of this kind of aggressive behavior in the future if we remain totally silent.

 

[JBS]

America was tested. There can be no doubt about it. The lack of insignia was a means of backpeddling if the US had reacted in a strong way. There's an inherent element of deniability when forces are used with sterile uniforms. If this is how they were dispatched, then it was for a reason: deniability and backpedaling. Putin was willing to go in, but not at all costs. Since there was response from us with "bite", the plan went forward. Our lack of response was calculated to be highly likely.

 

[Etype]

@JBS , didn't think about him grabbing other countries- I didn't plan that many moves ahead. I guess I'm still hung up on the fact that Crimea probably actually wanted to be part of Russia, and has historically tried to break free from Ukraine- two points that have received ZERO attention from the media, we can't even count on Beck or FOX to say that.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the lack of insignia thing meaning anything. Russia has the ability to conduct low viz operations just like we do.

 

[JBS]

@JBS , didn't think about him grabbing other countries- I didn't plan that many moves ahead. I guess I'm still hung up on the fact that Crimea probably actually wanted to be part of Russia, and has historically tried to break free from Ukraine- two points that have received ZERO attention from the media, we can't even count on Beck or FOX to say that.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the lack of insignia thing meaning anything. Russia has the ability to conduct low viz operations just like we do.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the Crimean populace and their collective disposition towards joining Russia. But my view of Putin gaining political momentum and capital is based on the recent conflict with - and domination of- Georgia. His military activity in former Soviet-bloc nations didn't just start with Ukraine.

I've also heard very recent rumors that Estonia is now struggling with uprisings to be annexed by Russia.

And regarding low vis operations, I'm with you. It's just the POINT of conducting one like this means he was non-commital up until it was clear that the US wasn't willing to move. You don't go low vis if you don't have any requirement for reservation of deniability. The planners here obviously wanted to reserve that right/option in case the SHTF, then distancing themselves from the event would have been possible.

 

[Etype]

@JBS - Operating without insignia is just sound thinking. With the mass media blasting everything, being able to track troop movements by unit is something that's now able to be done with open sources.

One of the original purposes of ACUs having velcro was for conventional units to able to remove name tapes and unit insignia during operations. The only thing required of a US service member during offensive operations is a flag or US Army name tape- one of either of those two things constitutes a uniform. I believe that's how every unit should operate. The enemy doesn't need to know if it's The 101st, 82nd, 3rd ID, whatever.

 

[JBS]

@JBS - Operating without insignia is just sound thinking. With the mass media blasting everything, being able to track troop movements by unit is something that's now able to be done with open sources.

One of the original purposes of ACUs having velcro was for conventional units to able to remove name tapes and unit insignia during operations. The only thing required of a US service member during offensive operations is a flag or US Army name tape- one of either of those two things constitutes a uniform. I believe that's how every unit should operate. The enemy doesn't need to know if it's The 101st, 82nd, 3rd ID, whatever.

Right on, but look at Russian movement in Abkhazia and South Ossettia; it was possible then to get some ID on the units involved- at least nationality and some basic details. These were mostly overt operations- at least what's OSINT or published about troop movement. Units traveled and moved on foot and mobile with rank and insignia and even unit ID patches plainly visible in the case of Georgia. I don't want to sound like I'm blowing it out of proportion. My main point is there is a distinction between how Putin treated Crimea and how he treated Georgia. Crimea was almost like putting his foot out on the ice to see if it would hold, or if cracks would develop. Lack of American response (and probably EU indifference as well) showed him the ice would hold.

 

[AWP]

Not to be a dick, but how can one look at a Marines' uniform and ID his/ her regiment?

 

[Marauder06]

Not to be a dick, but how can one look at a Marines' uniform and tell his/ her regiment?

Tattoos.

 

[JBS]

Not to be a dick, but how can one look at a Marines' uniform and ID his/ her regiment?

I don't think standard USMC uniforms are comparable to how the Crimean forces were dressed. The Russians were 'uniform', i.e. mostly wearing the same attire and carrying standardized gear (thus thinly adhering to some modicum of Geneva Article 4), but there was a distinct effort made to disguise who they were on an individual troop level, (balaclavas) and to remain relatively low vis with uniforms (no rank, no insignia, etc.). Additionally when questioned by media, they would never reply with who they were with, just that they were from Russia. They wouldn't even reply on individual levels with where in Russia they were from. They were professional in their replies, and would answer "it's not important; we are Russian and that's what is important".

 

[AWP]

Finally! Noted scholar and international relations "black belt" Hamid Karzai weighs in:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/24/karzai-snubs-west-backs-russian-annexation-crimea/

Afghan President Hamid Karzai, already at odds with the U.S. over a vital security pact, snubbed western leaders once again by joining the likes of Syria and Venezuela in backing Russia's annexation of Crimea.
Karzai's office released a statement over the weekend saying Afghanistan "respects the free will of the people of Crimea to decide about their own future."
The statement said "we respect the decision the people of Crimea took through a recent referendum that considers Crimea as part of the Russian Federation."

I want to believe that the last piece of ordnance dropped in OEF connects with Hammy's forehead.

 

[RackMaster]

Wonder what he'll think when Pakistan "annexes" half of that shithole.

 

[AWP]

Wonder what he'll think when Pakistan "annexes" half of that shithole.

What's funny is for years that waas PK's answer to an Indian invasion. Run to AF, hide in a "sovreign" country, and reroup (with Afghan levies) to retake their country.

The Afghans are only as free as the Pakistanis allow.

 

[Mac_NZ]

Honest question,

Are some people in the States fizzing at the flaps to get it on with Russia over this just because they served/grew up during the cold war and have lived on a steady diet of Sylvester Stallone laying waste to the evil commies?

 

[JBS]

Honest question,

Are some people in the States fizzing at the flaps to get it on with Russia over this just because they served/grew up during the cold war and have lived on a steady diet of Sylvester Stallone laying waste to the evil commies?

That's it. Rambo is my inspiration.

That, and Putin - KGB Colonel- successively invading and annexing sovereign nations who happen to be allies, one after the other; that has a tiny bit to do with it.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Honest question,

Are some people in the States fizzing at the flaps to get it on with Russia over this just because they served/grew up during the cold war and have lived on a steady diet of Sylvester Stallone laying waste to the evil commies?

From what I can tell, the people up in arms who state we should go to war (which are very few in my a/o) are all cold war era. Most people from my generation are praying like hell the hippies runing our country don't get us into WW3 over fucking Ukraine of all places...

 

[TLDR20]

That's it. Rambo is my inspiration.

That, and Putin - KGB Colonel- successively invading and annexing sovereign nations who happen to be allies, one after the other; that has a tiny bit to do with it.

Tell us what you want to happen.

 

[JBS]

Tell us what you want to happen.

Us meaning the Staff? Or us meaning you and @Mac_NZ ? Not sure I understood your statement.

If anybody is reliving the Cold War, I'd say it's probably Vladimir Putin.

 

[JBS]

Honest question,

Are some people in the States fizzing at the flaps to get it on with Russia over this just because they served/grew up during the cold war and have lived on a steady diet of Sylvester Stallone laying waste to the evil commies?

Just to be clear, there's a lot of room between inaction (which is what America's position has been in every instance that has mattered under Obama) and all out war.

For anyone who wants to say that threat of economic sanctions should deter Putin, I think it's pretty evident he could not possibly care less.

 

[RackMaster]

I want to see the round the world holding hands love fest that was promised.

 

[JBS]

Maybe if President Obama had bowed the last time he met Putin.